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Karl Grossman:
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Welcome to Enviro
Close-Up. I am Karl Grossman. This coming April 26 marks
the twenty-fifth anniversary of the Chernobyl nuclear plant disaster.
Meanwhile the nuclear industry world-wide is pushing for a revival of
nuclear power. And this very important book has been published:
Chernobyl:
Consequences of the Catastrophe for People
and the Environment. It concludes based
on now-available medical data that between 1986, the year of the
accident, and 2004, 985,000 people died as a result of the disaster,
and more have been dying since.
With us is Dr. Janette
Sherman. She is the Contributing Editor of
this book which was authored by a noted Russian biologist,
Dr. Alexey Yablokov, Vassily Nesterenko and Alexey Nesterenko. They
are both from Belarus. Welcome Janet.
How did these people die? We are talking a million people dead from this
nuclear plant accident. How?
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Janette Sherman:
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They died of multiple different kinds of diseases from cancer, to heart
disease, brain damage, thyroid cancer. But many, many children died in
utero, in other words before they were born or died of birth defects
after they were born.
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Karl Grossman:
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How did these scientists determine 985,000 deaths as a result of Chernobyl?
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Janette Sherman:
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Based on medical data that were available to the scientists.
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Karl Grossman:
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Now what we've heard, frankly, since the accident, from the International
Atomic Energy Agency ( IAEA) --
the global group which is supposed to regulate and promote nuclear power
-- currently on its website the IAEA says, the casualties of Chernobyl,
maybe in all, 4,000 people are dead. That's quite different from
985,000. Why this discrepancy?
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Janette Sherman:
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They released a report called
The
Chernobyl Forum and they only
included about 350 articles available in the English languate. But
Doctors Yablokov and the two Nesterenkos looked at well over 5,000
articles that people who were actually -- we hate to use the term
but -- boots on the ground. People who were there and saw what was
going on. We're talking about medical doctors, scientists,
veteranarians, epidemeologists who saw what was happening when
people in their communities were getting sick and dying.
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Karl Grossman:
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There's another international agency, the World Health Organisation,
WHO, and indeed the book charges
that the truth has not come out on Chernobyl from the WHO -- forget
about the IAEA -- because of a agreement between these two
agencies. Can you elaborate on that agreement?
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Janette Sherman:
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They formed an agreement in 1959 that has not been changed
where one will not release a report without the agreement of
the other. [1]
Now this is like having Dracula guard the blood
bank. Because the WHO, who is charged with world health
organisation, is beholden to the IAEA before they can release
a report.
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Karl Grossman:
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And, as I mentioned before, the IAEA is there to regulate nuclear
technology around the world but it was also set up to --
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Janette Sherman:
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-- promote it
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Karl Grossman:
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-- promote it. And it evidently does not want anything from WHO
which would indicate that nuclear power is not good for one's
health.
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Janette Sherman:
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That's right. And this needs to be ended. This agreement needs
to be stopped.
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Karl Grossman:
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Let me go right to you. You've devoted your life to the impacts of
poisons. That's been your specialty. You're a toxicologist. Here
you're editing this book, you're going through all this scientific
data; this has to be a million dead, the Chernobyl accident [was]
the biggest technological disaster in history of the world,
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Janette Sherman:
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It's true.
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Karl Grossman:
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How did you feel as you looked at the data and you put this book
together?
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Janette Sherman:
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I realized it was far worse than I thought it was. Not only
were people dying of cancer and heart disease. But every single
organ in the body, whether it was immunological, or lungs, or
cataracts, or skin -- everything was adversely
affected.
But not only people. Every single system that was studied
-- and not all were -- but every system that was studied, whether it
was humans, or fish, or trees, or birds, bacteria, viruses, wolves,
cows -- every system was changed, every single system without exception.
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Karl Grossman:
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And this is reflected in this --
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Janette Sherman:
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-- the book. It's not just human effects. Many of the birds and
animals had similar adverse effects as humans.
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Karl Grossman:
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Most people aren't familiar with -- we all know at this point that
radioactivity and cancer go together. But heart problems, heart disease
-- how does that connect?
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Janette Sherman:
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One of the most fascinating things that I learned when I was
re-writing the text of the book and going through all the data,
was [that] one of the scientists, Bandazhevsky, had done a
study that showed that the Cesium-137 levels in children
were the same as he had found in test
animals. [2]
And were causing heart damage. He reported this. And for his
work, he was put in prison.
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Karl Grossman:
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And he was put in prison?
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Janette Sherman:
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He was put in prison, yes.
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Karl Grossman:
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And he analyzed, these were animals that were --
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Janette Sherman:
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He did the original study on animals. He was a pathologist and then he
was studying the results in children. And he found the same changes in
the hearts of children, who had died, as he had seen in the animals.
When he reported it, his thanks was he got arrested and put in prison.
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Karl Grossman:
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The radioactivity from Chernobyl -- Russia, Belarus, Ukraine -- these
were three places where a lot of the radiation was deposited. But
according to this book, again based on data, those poisons came down
all over the world.
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Janette Sherman:
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Yes they did. The greatest concentrations came down in Belarus,
Ukraine, and Russia. But the greatest amount -- more than fifty
percent -- spread around the entire northern hemisphere. [It] particularly
went north into Scandinavia and eastward into Asia.
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Karl Grossman:
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As far as China.
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Janette Sherman:
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Oh yes.
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Karl Grossman:
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The book concludes indeed that the deaths, as a result of Chernobyl,
occurred not just in Belarus, Russia, and the Ukraine, but all over.
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Janette Sherman:
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Around the entire, the world. Yes, of course.
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Karl Grossman:
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How long will this continue? Some of the poisons that were discharged,
they are going to be around for millenia.
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Janette Sherman:
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Oh yes. Just the two main ones -- Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 -- have half
lives of about 30 years. So they will be around for three centuries, at
least. But many of the isotopes will be around for millenia, you
are right.
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Karl Grossman:
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The book, however, stressses that the worst damage occurred in those early
months. Particularly those early weeks when the fire -- the huge fire that
they were not able to put out -- was blazing.
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Janette Sherman:
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Yes. But still, right now, the reactor is leaking into the water supply.
The structure that is around the reactor right now is not sound. If there
is so much as a mild earthquake there is a chance of it collapsing. This
reactor is by no means covered up or safe and not leaking.
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Karl Grossman:
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This book, telling the truth about Chernobyl, was
published
by the New York Academy of Sciences. A rather pretigious
organisation. What about the rest of the scientific establishment? What
has been their stance, their position in getting this information out
on Chernobyl?
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Janette Sherman:
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Some groups have been very interested in getting out the information. People
allied with the nuclear industry would just as soon that nobody knew anything
about what's in that book.
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Karl Grossman:
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How did Dr. Yablokov and the Doctors Nesterenko embark on this journey with
you of looking into the impacts of Chernobyl?
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Janette Sherman:
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They have been aware of the WHO-IAEA agreement and actually there have been
people 24-7 outside of the WHO headquarters in Geneva trying to get this
stopped, this agreement
stopped. [3]
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Karl Grossman:
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These people have been demonstrating.
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Janette Sherman:
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Demonstrating, yes.
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Karl Grossman:
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Picketing because of this,
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Janette Sherman:
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-- agreement
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Karl Grossman:
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-- what the book describes as a collusive agreement between the IAEA and
WHO. [4]
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Janette Sherman:
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That's correct. Alexey Yablokov was a consultant to both Gorbachev and
Yeltsin on the Chernobyl issues. And as you know the data were covered
up for about three years right after Chernobyl happened because the
governments did not want anything to be known by people. And they
collected almost nothing in the way of data.
Alexey became interested in that and started collecting information. I
think there is something like 150,000 publications that have come
out and they utilized well over 5,000 in writing this book. Many of
the sources in here have never been translated in english. Mostly [they]
were in the languages of Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus. So this is
entirely new information that has not been available to the western
world.
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Karl Grossman:
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You talk about the impacts on people, on animals, on plant life. Are the
mechanisms different?
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Janette Sherman:
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No, essentially the mechanisms are the same. Exposure to these radioactive
isotopes are taken up by plants or taken up by birds, taken up by humans,
and damage the cells, kill some of the cells, damage the DNA, damage the
genetic mechanisms of species. If it kills a cell, then it is not going
to go on to cause cancer. If it damages a cell, it can go on to
cause cancer, or a birth defect in a human, a bird, or even, quote, birth
defects in plants. Plants have been altered by Chernobyl.
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Karl Grossman:
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You just mentioned how the consequences were a lot toward the northwest
because the winds were blowing towards of all places, Scandinavia. The
Laps, people who had nothing to do whatsoever with Chernobyl or nuclear
power, they got hit. There was rain and there was fallout and so forth.
Speak about those consequences.
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Janette Sherman:
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A recent study has come out showing that children born in Scandinavia,
at the time when the Chernobyl fallout occurred, are less likely to
graduate from high
school. [5]
They have intellectual impairment.
Probably the most serious consequence of Chernobyl that I'm aware of
is that only 20 percent of children in Belarus are considered healthy.
That means that 80 percent of the children in Belarus are not
well compared to the data that they have of children before the
Chernobyl accident. And they are medically not well. And they are
intellectually below par.
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Karl Grossman:
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What would be the relationship there between radioactivity and a
deterioration of intellectual capability?
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Janette Sherman:
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While a mother is pregnant she is eating food. What happened was that
most of the people either did not know or they did not have access to
food that was not contaminated. These isotopes are taken into the
body while a woman is pregnant. They are transported through her
body to the unborn and damage the heart, the lungs, the thyroids,
the brains -- all of the tissues, the immunological system
of these unborn. These children are born unwell, low birth weight.
There was a very high fetal death rate as a result of these
exposures. This is probably the greatest tragedy that could occur
to a culture.
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Karl Grossman:
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After the accident, from the Ukraine -- which had been the breadbasket
of the former Soviet Union (and it is where Chernobyl was and is; in
fact there are three units of the Chernobyl nuclear facility still in
operation) -- in any case, that food moved around.
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Janette Sherman:
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This is an extremely serious problem. How do you get enough food for
people if the land is contaminated for three centuries? Not only are
you worried about grains like wheat and rye, but you have to also
worry about mushrooms. That doesn't sound very important but mushrooms
are a very big part of the food supply in that area. And
these are extremely contaminated.
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Karl Grossman:
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The book concludes based on now-available medical data, 985,000
people dead. The data however just covers 1986 to 2004. As we
opened the program, mentioning one million casualties, would
that be essentially the number that became victims of Chernobyl?
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Janette Sherman:
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I believe that is correct. Yes. That we will see that many. We know
for instance, that of the people called the Liquidators, these were
the young men and women who were recruited largely from military, from
countries all around the area, to go in and try and put out the fires
and contain the Chernobyl mess. Fifteen percent of them have died,
These were young men and women, we're talking 18 to maybe 30.
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Karl Grossman:
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Dr. Sherman in terms of the amount of radioactivity emitted from the plant,
there too there is a big discrepancy between what's revealed in this
book and what's been acknowledged up to now.
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Janette Sherman:
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Absolutely. If a small amount was emitted, then we have to conclude
that low levels of radiation are extremely damaging. If large
levels were emitted, then we have to understand how much damage has been
done. But we really don't know yet because nobody has been able to
go in and find out what is actually left in the reactor that is leaking
into the ground water.
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Karl Grossman:
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What does this say about the safety of nuclear power? [With] the nuclear
industry, the nuclear establishment -- because a lot of the nuclear industry
involves government entities -- a push is on to revive nuclear power, to
create a nuclear renaissance, to build many, many more nuclear power
plants. What's the lesson of Chernobyl and that?
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Janette Sherman:
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I think the lesson of Chernobyl is that we should be very cautious before
we push technology. We were told that there was no problem with the
British Petroleum drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. There is one issue
of technology where engineers do certain things. But they do not
understand the biology; they do not understand what is happening
to life around these installations. I think Chernobyl is the biggest
lesson of what has happened to all species that were contaminated.
No exceptions.
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Karl Grossman:
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The book indeed talks about owls and could you elaborate on some of the
effects on animals?
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Janette Sherman:
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One of the scientists whose photograph is on the cover of the book is
Tim Mousseau
from the University of South
Carolina. [6]
He's led over 25 groups of scientists to the Chernobyl area. They
have studied insects and birds and animals and owls and all
kinds of different animals as to what is going on.
He said [during] one of the trips he made, that he suddenly realized there
were no bees. There was no fruit falling on the ground. And he realized
there was no fruit falling on the ground because there were no bees
that had pollenated the trees. So he is predicting, and this may indeed
happen, that there could indeed be a complete loss of species around
Chernobyl as a result of these isotopes that are still decaying
that could wipe out entire species.
After all it is a major bird transport area, a migration area. And
we don't know what's happening when the birds come through, eat whatever
they can find on the ground, and then fly on, dropping the berries further
on, after they have left the Chernobyl
area. [7]
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Karl Grossman:
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The genetic impacts: radioactivity has an enormous affect on genes. Speak
on that.
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Janette Sherman:
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These are unlikely to be improved. Once you get a genetic defect it becomes
transmitted generation after generation after generation. So these defects
that are occurring in humans and birds and plants are unlikely to improve
the species as they occur.
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Karl Grossman:
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What kind of genetic defects are you speaking of?
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Janette Sherman:
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In humans we're talking about brain defects, heart defects, limb defects,
children without arms, hydrocephalic babies. In birds we're looking at
changes in the feathers and in the beaks and in their brain size.
You talk about bird brains? These birds are not as smart and they are
not going to be able to function as well as the birds that are not
changed. [8] We know that the plants have been changed,
irreversibly.
This is not rocket science. We know where these isotopes go. We
know that iodine goes to the thyroid. We know that strontium-90 goes
to bones and teeth, particularly of the unborn. We know that cesium-137
goes to the heart and to the muscles. This is not a mystery. And if we
know this, we can predict what the adverse effects are going to be. And
indeed they turned out to be just that. And it's shown, proven in this
book.
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Karl Grossman:
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This has to constitute one of the, well, the claim that just a few
thousand people died as a result of the Chernobyl disaster. One of
the biggest lies in history, no?
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Janette Sherman:
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Absolutely. And they have been able to get away with it. We need to put
pressure on the WHO and the United Nations to separate the WHO from
the IAEA.
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Karl Grossman:
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Not just on the international level with the International Atomic Energy
Agency and the World Health Organisation. Here in the United States the
Nuclear Regulatory Commission has too, tried to minimize the impacts of
radioactivity.
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Janette Sherman:
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You are absolutely correct. I can go back to the Atomic Energy Commission
before the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. I worked for the AEC at the
University of California in 1952. That was my first job out of college.
And if I could figure out with my limited experience at that time,
and my limited education at that time, that radiation was harmful then
other people could figure it out.
We have had secrecy and lies to the
American public for decades about the effects of nuclear radiation. There
have been cover-ups, there have been falsification of data, there have
been people who said, Well don't worry about a little strontium-90,
don't worry about the Tritium coming out of the
plant. [9] We know that
Davis-Besse almost melted within an inch of its containment as a
result of poor
maintenance. [10]
And I believe it is just a matter of time
before we have another nuclear problem somewhere in the world if not
in the United States.
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Karl Grossman:
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Why? Here you were within the nuclear establishment way back -- we're talking
about a half-century ago - plus --
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Janette Sherman:
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Yes
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Karl Grossman:
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[Does it] have to do with money? Does it have to do with promoting a
technology that these people are connected with, the nuclear scientists?
Why the lying? Why the deception?
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Janette Sherman:
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I think it has to do with many things. I think it's the money. And the
control is on corporations who are promoting nuclear technology. But we
also have enormous scientific ignorance in this country. People
who really don't understand biology. I think if I lined up 20
people in a mall someplace and said, "Put your hand over your liver,"
I'll bet you half of them couldn't do it. And to explain to people
what's happening with nuclear radiation, I think our educational
system is so poor these days that children are not learning about
biology and physics and chemistry. And it is essential because it
is such a major part of our culture and our economy.
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Karl Grossman:
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As you plow through all this data, the consequences of Chernobyl, did
the experience back decades ago connect in any way to what you were
doing?
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Janette Sherman:
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Oh absolutely. This has been known for decades. The adverse effects
of radioactivity have been known for decades. This is not something
that has just occurred in the last couple of years. Scientists who
have any knowledge whatsoever of physics can figure out where an
isotope is going to go in a body, or in a plant, or in a bird. This
is not mysterious kinds of science.
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Karl Grossman:
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What does Chernobyl represent? We're talking a million dead. What does
it represent in terms of technological history or the current technological
scene? What does it mean?
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Janette Sherman:
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I think it represents very strongly that we cannot depend on technology.
Nor can we depend on humans who operate and design this technology.
Because the ultimate failure is human failure as happened at Chernobyl.
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Karl Grossman:
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But you're talking here about health consequences on the most massive of
scales.
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Janette Sherman:
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Yes indeed. Around the entire Northern Hemisphere.
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Karl Grossman:
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Wherever the fallout was, people ended up dead.
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Janette Sherman:
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They wound up dead. And they wound up with children who were grossly impaired
intellectually and medically. And this is going on -- it hasn't stopped yet. It's
still going on.
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Karl Grossman:
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Dr. Sherman how can people get a copy of this book?
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Janette Sherman:
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They can contact me by e-mail. I am
toxdoc.js@verizon.net. I hope to have
information on how they can get copies of this book.
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Karl Grossman:
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Yes, I think it is very important at this time that people learn the truth
about what happened as a result of the Chernobyl disaster. Thank you so
much for doing this work, Dr. Sherman.
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