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From kaplan@unamas.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:44:33 1991
From: kaplan@unamas.esd.sgi.com (Larry Kaplan)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Oh well, nothing does last forever. But long live sgi.talk.ratical!!!
I will read your wonderful postings there, so please remove me from this
e-mail group.
Continue the good work. Even Dr. Software (He who won't run Cypress)
can't keep a good man down.
Larry Kaplan (415) 335-1584
Silicon Graphics, Mountain View, CA 94039 USA
From wendy@peahead.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:46:30 1991
From: wendy@peahead.esd.sgi.com (Wendy Chin)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
dave,
thank you for continuing your work- i will read your
new news groups and continue to learn from your research.
i too am sad to see some of these restrictions and rules
here at SGI, and do what i can to retain the environment
from earlier days.
-wendy
From vjs@rhyolite.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:50:57 1991
From: vjs@rhyolite.wpd.sgi.com (Vernon Schryver)
To: dave
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
I'd rather see only 1 copy, in news.
thanks.
vjs
From gary@enigma.csd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:53:00 1991
From: gary@enigma.csd.sgi.com (Wizard of OZ)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Dave
I will be reading yer future stuff anxiously from ratical newsgroup,
so plz delete me from the mail alias.
Gary Griffin
gary@sgi.com
Think WORLDWIDE
From lara@yorgi.csd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:54:16 1991
From: lara@yorgi.csd.sgi.com (Lara J Allen)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
ps i like the idea of a ratical forum
,--------------------------------. ^/\ //\\
/\_/\ / Lara J Allen \ oo \ U //
/\ / o o \ / Silicon Graphics | (*)~/____//
//\\ \~(*)~/ > (415) 335-1609 | ~ , |
` \/ ^ / \ or | \ ___\ \
| \|| || \ lara@sgi.sgi.com / ||\\ |/.\
\ '|| || `--------------------------------' (/ \) (/ (/
\)()-()) yorgi
From ian@lassen.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 09:59:35 1991
From: ian@lassen.wpd.sgi.com (Ian Clements)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
The sad reality is that we are looting our children's future; two examples
come to mind, Social Security and, the rape of the land (de-forestation).
Even sadder is the fact that as main stream tv goes, Ted K. is about the
``best''.
In defense of Ted and also you, opinions are like assholes, everyone has
one (not intended to be taken as a slam). One really needs to look to
several different sources for any truly important topic. I was going to post
something the other day but thought better of it (for some of the reasons
Jim sighted) about opinion from the left and right of a given subject--most
would bave thought I was a left-winger, which I don't think I am--nor do
I consider myself to be a right-winger either. I really wanted to stress
that although your posts are offensive to lots of people, they give a side
of an argument that is not available from most mainstream news sources.
Also, most people who take offense don't know what the other sides' opinion
really is with the exception that it's wrong. How can you argue something
unless you see both sides--fully?
Keep on posting--to a new place !
--ian
Ian Clements | "It takes to the road like a cop to a donut"
ian@sgi.com 415/962-3410 | -- Suzuki DR250
From lroy@jetson.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:01:27 1991
From: lroy@jetson.asd.sgi.com (Linda Ann Roy)
Apparently-To: dave
I would prefer to read the news group rather than the mailing list.
Hey, Dave, you do a great job. Although I don't always agree with
your postings, they do get me thinking and have changed my point of view.
Your last posting on the introduction of the new newsgroup was especially
clear and thoughtful.
Linda
From eva@socrates.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:02:50 1991
From: eva@socrates.esd.sgi.com (Eva Manolis)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Go for it ratman. I look forward to sgi.talk.ratical.
Take me off the mailing list, I read news.
thanks,
eva
--- The Giraffe Person at SGI......
eva@sgi.com
From pauli@uniblab.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:10:31 1991
From: pauli@uniblab.asd.sgi.com (Paul Isaacs)
To: dave
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
keep me posted. I am sorry to see this change come to pass. Although I have
only been here a few months, your postings were one of the first things
to strike me as 'really cool' about SGI. Ah, well.
pauli.
P.S. Did anyone suggest a company-wide vote on this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The earth is like a grain of sand, only much, much bigger."
Paul Isaacs -- pauli@sgi.com (415)335-7494 Silicon Graphics Inc.
From fryer@chiba.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:18:11 1991
From: fryer@chiba.esd.sgi.com (Beth (Laura) Fryer)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Dave--
I've already started reading the new newsgroup (great idea!)
so you can take me off the mailing list. Thanks again,
for all your hard work-- I really appreciate your posts.
Beth
From rolf@sonata.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:31:23 1991
From: rolf@sonata.asd.sgi.com (Rolf van Widenfelt)
To: dave
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
dave, you've certainly "out-typed" them all!
make sure and keep me on a private mail list (ratstart->ratend or whatever).
I don't read news much.
I recommend you create a separate news group just for you sgi.ratical or so.
Periodically, post something to sgi.general mentioning that there's some
interesting stuff to read in there!
-rolf
PS:
what a quote!
Know that the people who are the richest
are not those who have the most,
but those who need the least.
From portuesi@tweezers.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:35:24 1991
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
hey ratman,
I'll be subscribing to both of your newsgroups -- could you take me
off the email distribution?
Thanks a lot for posting these articles. I value them more and more
as the days go by, even if I don't always have time to read them at
my terminal due to the pressing work issues at my door.
m.
From melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:37:18 1991
From: melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com (Melissa Heinrich)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Well, I for one will miss your postings on sgi.general.
Although I have not been here as long as you, Luis and
I will be coming up on our third year in July (we started
on the same day). Since I've been here and have been thru
the various changes SGI has gone thru I found a lot of feeling
of the good ol' days whenever I'd see your postings on sgi.general.
The other feelings I had was that what you brought to sgi.general
helped me tremendously as I feel that I'm rather unaware.
In fact I had gotten so caught up in my own stuff of late
that I truely appreciated your postings. ...especially the
one on the Dalai Lama's talk. How else would I have seen this
or had an opportunity to read that if you had not posted it?
Well, having been a buddhist I know I could have found a way
but reading it on sgi.general was nice and simple.
Heavy sigh. Well, if I have to maintain this connection
by reading sgi.talk.ratical, I'll do it. ....but I'm not happy
about it.
-Melissa
From cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 10:49:35 1991
From: cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Help! Ratman! I've just received about 6 or so copies
of this (tragic & angering) "end of an era" mail.
Some mailer somewhere is regurgitating, it seems.
cj
(I've just been talking with MelissaH about "new
attitudes" that amount to "the old guard at SGI
is holding us back"-- which is terrifying to me.)
From vic@wookie.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 11:08:47 1991
From: vic@wookie.wpd.sgi.com (Victor Mitnick)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Dave -
I've gotten five copies of your mail so far - thought you might like to know
that somethings wrong somewhere...
- Vic
BTW, I for one appreciate your efforts, and look forward to their continuation,
albeit in a different newsgroup.
From cliff@marasai.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 11:38:06 1991
From: cliff@marasai.asd.sgi.com (Clifford O. Thompson)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Hey, Ratman...
I'm glad you posted this message, and have enjoyed what I've had a chance to
read so far, but I've also received about 8-10 copies of it this morning.
Wha'Happen'?
Cliff
From paulm@kestrel.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 11:40:30 1991
From: paulm@kestrel.asd.sgi.com (Paul Mielke)
To: dave
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Hmm, so instead of corporate censorship, we get self censorship.
I do agree though, that sgi.general is not the right place to have
a full blown discussion of the issues that your postings raise.
I'm overwhelmed with e-mail these days, so I'd prefer to read
the news groups. Please remove me from the mailing list.
Thanks!
----
Paul Mielke (paulm@sgi.com)
From cliff@marasai.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 12:55:29 1991
From: cliff@marasai.asd.sgi.com (Clifford O. Thompson)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: apologies for the multiple copies
Like I've always said, "No good deed shall go unpunished." Actually, I
never said that, but I did read it somewhere...
Cliff
From dunwoody@r2d2.asd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 12:56:17 1991
From: dunwoody@r2d2.asd.sgi.com (Craig Dunwoody)
To: dave
I was very moved by your opening msg in sgi.talk.ratical. This is the
kind of discussion that I think we need to have if we are ever going
to get sane (I'm still trying...)
I too am quite saddened to see the passing of the day when posting
anything you want to sgi.general is accepted. Some of the flavor of
the place is lost. Perhaps a way to partially salvage the situation
would be to send an occasional (weekly?) POLI msg to sgi.general in
the form of a "synopsis of topics" that would point people to
sgi.talk.ratical?
-c
From mitch@rock.csd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 13:04:24 1991
From: mitch@rock.csd.sgi.com (Thomas Mitchell)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: fyi: end of an era and all...
Thanks dave,
I will read the news group.
The user interface is simpler to keep things
for study.
So pull me from the general rat list.
Keep me in the friends-o-rat list so
I get your almost annual invite to the ratcave
in SantaCaluse s/Clause/ Cruse/p
Thomas P. Mitchell -- mitch@sgi.com or mitch%relay.csd.sgi.com@sgi.com
"All things in moderation; including moderation."
Article: 3225 of sgi.general
>From laurab@sgi.com (Laura Beatty)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:08:43 GMT
Lines: 27
In article <1991Apr26.163255.779@odin.corp.sgi.com> dave@ratmandu.corp.sgi.com (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe) writes:
>
>and i guess i'm just an eccentric young coot for wanting to retain some
>of the magic and the outlandishly uncommon quality of what it was like to
>be able to post anything to that mail alias, and now and then, create a
>wondrously vital and dynamic stirring discussion that might draw in tens
>of differing voices covering a wide-ranging area of opinion and dialogue.
>it was a very heady time and i felt very stimulated and charged by the
>whole process and how this was such demonstrable proof-positive that SGI
>was simply one-EXTREMELY-RARE-of-a-kind in the world of business and
>enterprising industry. the opportunity to experience first-hand such an
>invigorating forum of debate and discussion--uncensored by any call by
>those who *did* argue that politics has no place in the business setting
>and that this kind of discussion was completely inappropriate--well, it
>just turned me on to witness it being able to happen in such an unfettered
>and uninhibited a way.
why all the melodrama?
why don't we make a list called sgi.whiners? geez, why don't you post
this to alt.sex.beastiality? i mean, there is a specific newsgroup
created for a specific topic, POLITICS, but why BOTHER, right? is it such
a big deal to post an article relating to a specific subject to a newsgroup
dedicated to that subject?
are you a career malcontent or is it just a phase you're going thru?
laura
Article: 3226 of sgi.general
From: joyce@deco.csd.sgi.com (Joyce Richards)
Subject: i liked your farewell, ratman...
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:29:42 GMT
Lines: 19
>>why all the melodrama?
harsh post...hiss...smack!
well, ratman, i liked your farewell post.
a leetle long there... but so it goes.
i also enjoyed your noise when you worked in CSD-land.
i fail to see what's so grand about everyone's posting the correct posts
to the correct places. so then everything will be predictible?
ho-hum.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
joyce richards PSE
joyce@csd.sgi.com Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Article: 3227 of sgi.general
From: jym@sgi.com (ESD Product Marketing)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:53:52 GMT
Lines: 41
In article <1991Apr26.163255.779@odin.corp.sgi.com> dave@ratmandu.corp.sgi.com (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe) writes:
>
> The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of many things...
>
>before, the walrus was Paul. but now Dr. Software has taken up the call.
>i received the following from him early this week:
>
>
>> Subject: sgi.general postings
>>
>> Well, Dave, it looks like the time has come. I think it would be a good
>> idea to move the POLI postings to sgi.politics. To keep posting them to
>> sgi.general may invite corporate censorhip, which I (for one) wouldn't
>> like to see. When I read messages where someone is even afraid to post
>> a message arguing with the articles, it says to me that we have a
>> censorship problem - only this time it is being done in reverse.
>>
>> > i'm sure i'll be flamed for weeks and weeks for this,
>> > but would it be possible to limit the "Poli" posting to sgi.politics?
>> >
>> > laura
>>
>> Do you have a problem with this, or can we just do it? Thanks in advance ...
>>
>> -- jmb
>
I'm sitting here with tears in my eyes. Dave's right, and actually Dr.
Software is right too. SGI is no longer the kind of place where a guy
like Dave can try to help enlighten the propagandized masses. I would
like to take this opportunity to thank Dave for all the work he has
done towards giving us all an alternative point of view. His postings
have been a beam of hope in an otherwise steril, corporate world, where
the pocketbook rules. SGI deserves some thanks as well for letting Dave
make his postings for as long as they did. On the other hand, the
fact that SGI allowed this makes it the kind of place worth driving over
the hill for. I would like to encourage
everyone to read the new sgi.talk.ratical, and to comment with whatever
opinions y'all have in sgi.talk.ratical.d.
jim (the emotional wreck) t
do you by any chance have the full text of laura's original response?
dave watson cleared it out at her request and i want to be able to read
the full text?
Article: 3228 of sgi.general
From: fryer@chiba.esd.sgi.com (Beth (Laura) Fryer)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:59:36 GMT
Lines: 23
>In article <1991Apr26.170843.2259@odin.corp.sgi.com>, Laura Beatty writes:
>why all the melodrama?
>why don't we make a list called sgi.whiners? geez, why don't you post
>this to alt.sex.beastiality? i mean, there is a specific newsgroup
>created for a specific topic, POLITICS, but why BOTHER, right? is it such
>a big deal to post an article relating to a specific subject to a newsgroup
>dedicated to that subject?
>are you a career malcontent or is it just a phase you're going thru?
>laura
Why be so unpleasant? You got what you wanted-- ratman won't
be posting his political stuff on sgi.general anymore because too
many people (notice I don't say "whiners") found it too challenging
to hit the "n" key. Ratman explained WHY he didn't post in
sgi.talk.politics (a very new newsgroup, anyway) and believe
it or not, some of us WILL miss his traditional posts in sgi.general--
I, for one, have been reading them since I started working at sgi
four years ago. Why not lighten up a little?
Beth
Article: 3229 of sgi.general
From: cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Organization: SGI TechPubs
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 17:59:48 GMT
Lines: 27
In <1991Apr26.170843.2259@odin.corp.sgi.com>
laurab@sgi.com (Laura Beatty) writes:
[in response to ratman's "new venue" message]
| why all the melodrama?
| why don't we make a list called sgi.whiners? geez, why don't you post
| this to alt.sex.beastiality? i mean, there is a specific newsgroup
| created for a specific topic, POLITICS, but why BOTHER, right? is it such
| a big deal to post an article relating to a specific subject to a newsgroup
| dedicated to that subject?
|
| are you a career malcontent or is it just a phase you're going thru?
| laura
I really can't believe that somebody would actually
write something so nasty & cruel here in sgi.general.
Somebody must have been forging postings from
Laura's machine, in an attempt to discredit her, I guess.
Laura, have you perhaps left yourself logged in and
your machine unattended?
---
cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"Allow me to say that the arguments with which you have supported this
extraordinary application have been as frivolous as the application was
misjudged. You have widely mistaken my character, if you think I can be
worked on by such persuasions as these." Jane Austen
Article: 3230 of sgi.general
From: laurab@thebundys.esd.sgi.com (Laura Beatty)
Subject: perhaps i owe an apology
Cc: dave@corp
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 18:01:21 GMT
Lines: 8
Well, perhaps I was a little harsh in the last article I sent
regarding Dave Ratcliffe's mail.
but I was possibley misinterpreting this as being aimed at ME
(because my mail was copied) and I felt I was being personally
attacked.
If I did get the wrong idea, I am very sorry.
Laura Beatty
Article: 3232 of sgi.general
From: ghelms@sgi.com (Gretchen Helms)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Followup-To: sgi.talk.ratical.d
Summary: Read the followup-to line before you squawk!
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 18:11:25 GMT
Lines: 64
ratman writes:
>i went to Jim to argue my very singular side. the one point he made
>which i cudn't really argue with was that he felt uncomfortable with the
>fact that there isn't anything else to "balance" out the kind of postings
>i make--something in effect that presents another side. of course,
>following the strict rules of net etiquette, posts representing such
>differing points of view would quickly raise a storm of protest about how
>this kind of discussion doesn't belong in a .general news group and
>really oughta go elsewhere.
>
>obviously my point of view in all of this is something of an anachronism.
>you see, i am basing my conduct here on the days (sadly and inevitably
>gone forever at SGI) when the precursor to sgi.general was the "all"
>company-wide e-mail alias. of course this place was much smaller then.
>and i guess i'm just an eccentric young coot for wanting to retain some
>of the magic and the outlandishly uncommon quality of what it was like to
>be able to post anything to that mail alias, and now and then, create a
>wondrously vital and dynamic stirring discussion that might draw in tens
>of differing voices covering a wide-ranging area of opinion and dialogue.
It's not just an SGI phenomenon, Ratman,
it's netwide. In fact, I feel that it
may well be a symptom of a greater problem,
which has many different causes.
In a small newsgroup like sgi.general (or
alt.sport.paintball, the other newsgroup
this happened in), where incoming articles
RARELY exceed 20 a day, the occasional
smattering of postings concerning something
else (sgi: ratman's stuff, paintball: a
similair but non-paint-using game) is hardly
a threat to the group at large. Postings
that are off the topic only become a threat
when they *exceed* the normal types of posts
to the group, which hasn't been the case
in either of the groups above.
In some ways (and please note ahead of time
I'm not flaming anyone, I'm writing with the
entire Net in mind here) it almost seems to
be a symptom of a lack of personal responsibility,
in that people are unwilling to deal with a
small problem with killfiles or other techniques
on their own, but instead call for the Net
Police to take care of the problem instead for them.
But that's just me grumbling, your mileage may
vary.
>in a
>nutshell i feel there is a rampant widespread lack of owning up to this
>enormous mantle of responsibility by the currently most militarily
>powerful nation on Earth, the United States and its collective citizenry.
You just hit it RIGHT on the nose. It's not
just small businesses getting larger, it's the
whole civilization occupying American that is
having trouble right now.
--
G. "Murdock" Helms *
Silicon Graphics Words are weapons, sharper than knives
Product Support Engineer Makes you wonder how the other half die.
ghelms@csd.sgi.com *
Article: 3233 of sgi.general
From: gold@sgi.com (Michael Gold)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Distribution: sgi
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 18:12:28 GMT
Lines: 28
In article <1991Apr26.170843.2259@odin.corp.sgi.com> laurab@sgi.com (Laura Beatty) writes:
>
>why all the melodrama?
>why don't we make a list called sgi.whiners? geez, why don't you post
>this to alt.sex.beastiality? i mean, there is a specific newsgroup
>created for a specific topic, POLITICS, but why BOTHER, right? is it such
>a big deal to post an article relating to a specific subject to a newsgroup
>dedicated to that subject?
>
>are you a career malcontent or is it just a phase you're going thru?
>laura
GROW UP! You've completely missed the point. It's really easy to unsubscribe
from a newsgroup like sgi.politics if you want to hide from the facts. The
ratman is, in a small way, attempting to DO SOMETHING about what is a MAJOR
PROBLEM and is being TOTALLY IGNORED by us American FATCATS who don't give
a HOOT for anything but our BMW's and disposable diapers.
Anyway, talk about a bad winner! You wanted this stuff off of sgi.general.
So you've got it. Now quit YOUR whining.
Oops, looks like I've just gone and put my foot in it.
--
Michael I. Gold You go your way, I'll go mine,
Silicon Graphics Inc. I don't care if we get there on time,
Internet: gold@sgi.com Everybody's searching for something they say,
Voice: (415) 335-1709 I'll get my kicks on the way...
Article: 3234 of sgi.general
From: cplin@ninja.wpd.sgi.com
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Date: 26 Apr 91 18:25:36 GMT
Sender: guest@sgi.sgi.com
Distribution: sgi
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 20
In article <1991Apr26.170843.2259@odin.corp.sgi.com>, laurab@sgi.com (Laura Beatty) writes:
>
> why all the melodrama?
> why don't we make a list called sgi.whiners? geez, why don't you post
> this to alt.sex.beastiality? i mean, there is a specific newsgroup
> created for a specific topic, POLITICS, but why BOTHER, right? is it such
> a big deal to post an article relating to a specific subject to a newsgroup
> dedicated to that subject?
>
> are you a career malcontent or is it just a phase you're going thru?
Enough is enough. Laura, what do you really want? I thought you already got
what you want - to push Ratman's articles out of this news group. I don't
think it is fair for you to treat Ratman like this.
> laura
/CP Lin
Article: 3236 of sgi.general
From: luis@solaris.wpd.sgi.com (Luis Oleson)
Subject: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Date: 26 Apr 91 21:10:53 GMT
Sender: guest@sgi.sgi.com
Lines: 50
Dr. Software writes (in his formerly private mail message to Dave):
> Subject: sgi.general postings
>
> Well, Dave, it looks like the time has come. I think it would be a good
> idea to move the POLI postings to sgi.politics. To keep posting them to
> sgi.general may invite corporate censorhip, which I (for one) wouldn't
> like to see. When I read messages where someone is even afraid to post
> a message arguing with the articles, it says to me that we have a
> censorship problem - only this time it is being done in reverse.
>
> -- jmb
Two rhetorical questions:
> idea to move the POLI postings to sgi.politics. To keep posting them to
> sgi.general may invite corporate censorhip, which I (for one) wouldn't
If what has just happened to the POLI postings on sgi.general is not
corporate censorship, then what is it?
> a message arguing with the articles, it says to me that we have a
> censorship problem - only this time it is being done in reverse.
When is censorship a problem and when is it not?
I thought Jim (Barton) made some excellent points in his "who should _really_
be using cypress and why" article but I'm going to have to disagree with
him when he implies that laurab is afraid to post messages (for fear of
being flamed). Judging from her second posting, which now appears to be
killed, I'd say she's not afraid of that at all.
Dave made it so easy for people who weren't interested in his postings to
ignore them: POLI on *every* one of his subject lines. To paraphrase KQED's
preface to their Comedy Tonight series: "If you don't think these things
are relevant, don't read this posting."
Lastly, I'm very sad to see that there are people in this company who will
openly attack an individual with harsh sarcasm. Words like that are meant
to hurt and consequently are not very good for making a point, strengthening
credibility, and garnering support. Life is hard enough. We don't need to
experience such a lack of kindness, charity, compassion, and understanding
at the hands of our coworkers.
Louie
This is really sad.
-----
How 'bout those A's -- five in a row!
From corbett@zot.esd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 15:21:05 1991
From: corbett@zot.esd.sgi.com (John D. Corbett)
To: dave@corp.sgi.com
Subject: your posts
Reply-To: corbett@sgi.com (John D. Corbett)
Dear Dave,
If I understood your message correctly, you are moving your political
posts off sgi.general.
Thank you. In my opinion this is a mature, appropriate, and polite
choice.
Sincerely,
John Corbett
From cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com Fri Apr 26 22:26:26 1991
To: luis@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com, dave@ratmandu.corp
Subject: Re: Ratman, and the search for an answer to censorship...
Cc: melissa@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com, fryer@chiba.esd
I wrote this originally intending to send it to sgi.general,
then I realized that I couldn't. Bad idea. I'm not even
sure I should send it to Mark Young, since I don't know him.
But here's my take on what's going on...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Reply-To: cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
References: <1991Apr27.012514.20741@fido.wpd.sgi.com>
Followup-To: sgi.talk.ratical.d
Newsgroups: sgi.general
Organization: SGI TechPubs
Subject: Re: Ratman, and the search for an answer to censorship...
[it's probably ironically appropriate to direct followups
to sgi.talk.ratical.d]
myoung@joker.sgi.com (Mark Young) writes:
| What if someone started posting sgi.general messages like:
| Subject: CHRIST: God Wants You...
In this case, I'd just make a killfile, as the people who
were upset about the POLI postings should have done.
Is sgi.general high traffic? Nope. Were the POLI postings
flooding the group? Nope. Was I forced to read a single
one of them? Nope. Did it inconvenience me to skip
the ones I did skip? Nope. Will it inconvenience me to
read the POLI postings I want to read in the new group?
Nope.
Why should I cause a ruckus for my own convenience?
There's one of me; there are hundreds of people reading
this group.
That's why *I* don't give a damn about who posts what
here. I'm in complete control over what I read.
| All I'm pointing out is that if there is a newsgroup more suited to a
| particular thread of discussion, why not move it there?
Let me try to explain how this struck me: a person who is
known to disagree with Ratman's politics made the complaint.
That person followed up Ratman's graceful acquiescence
with a nasty remark. Is all this upset caused by the application
of the noble principle of Using the Correct Group? Or is it
the application of a personal grudge? (What's more, against
Ratman, who's a company icon for the people who've been
here a while.)
That's just speculation, and I can't judge. I really do
wish the situation weren't ambiguous & that I wasn't forced
to consider that possibility... but that might be why people
are upset. Their status quo is disturbed by why they
perceive to be an ugly reason. That might be why the
censorship issue keeps cropping up, though this isn't
actually censorship.
---
cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"Without scheming to do wrong, or to make others unhappy, there may be error,
and there may be misery. Thoughtlessness, want of attention to other
people's feelings, and want of resolution, will do the business." --Austen
To: luis@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com, dave@ratmandu.corp,
cj@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Subject: Re: Ratman, and the search for an answer to censorship...
Cc: melissa@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com, fryer@chiba.esd
sigh....
i don't really know what to say about this anymore. the
one good thing is that i feel no compunction about piling
lots more pieces into s.t.r than i ever wud have felt was
acceptable to s.g (there's already 20 in there from just
2 days...). i have felt so MUCH in the past 3-9 months
more and more and more simply saying, "oh.... o-kay, you
want to do it that way? o-kay." i have lost the will to
fight so hard (esPEcially w/cypress) because i just know
there's nothing really to make a dent in much less have
an impact with. the different private-to-me email responses
i got, plus different ones on s.g really confirmed for me
just how much i can make a difference ANYWAYS which of
course is all any of us ever really wanna feel in this
part of our psychic core-space infinite selves...
.
Cc: melissa@modernlvr.wpd.sgi.com, fryer@chiba.esd
From melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 10:00:07 1991
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Cc: melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com
Subject: Re: Ratman, and the search for an answer to censorship...
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 10:00:02 -0700
From: melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com
>2 days...). i have felt so MUCH in the past 3-9 months
>more and more and more simply saying, "oh.... o-kay, you
>want to do it that way? o-kay." i have lost the will to
>fight so hard (esPEcially w/cypress) because i just know
>there's nothing really to make a dent in much less have
>an impact with. the different private-to-me email responses
Ditto. I've been feeling the same way for about the past
9 months. Many folks around me have been urging me to
be more vocal and not to give up in the various areas I
run into here. But, it seemed with Cypress I also especially
didn't feel like fighting any longer and quietly fading back
to simply saying "okay."
But you have made a difference. Like you said,
by taking the s.g.r approach there is already load o'
e-mail. Perhaps this is working out for the best afterall, eh?
I know for myself I just didn't want to see you get trashed.
That's when my button got severely pushed. I can sit back and
wonder about a lot of things around here, but I didn't like
what I was seeing on s.g.
>i got, plus different ones on s.g really confirmed for me
>just how much i can make a difference ANYWAYS which of
>course is all any of us ever really wanna feel in this
>part of our psychic core-space infinite selves...
Really. Nicely said.
-Melissa
Article: 3238 of sgi.general
From: trant@empower.corp.sgi.com (Ken Trant)
Subject: Re: Farewell
Keywords: Phobia, smhobia
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 21:53:11 GMT
Lines: 29
Well, since I already steped into it I might as well finish with the group.
I hope Ratman will continue as an active member of the sgi.general community
and not just fold up his tents and go home. I have enjoyed his postings and
will still enjoy them in whatever group he posts in. I do believe that each
topical subject, such as POLI postings, belong in the correct news group and
not simply because "they don't belong here". It is much simpler for me to
follow topics, engage in heated discussions and gather important information
on a specific subject if I can go and get it in a known place. I would hope
(and expect???) that when a subject of general interest, whether political,
ecological, or emotional comes up it can and will be posted to sgi.general
for the benefit of all. I for one can't find the time to read all the groups
I am subscribed to, which is why I have sgi.general as the first group read.
Because of the nature of the word "general" I expect to read items of interest
and importance to me as an SGI employee and as a member of the group "human".
The only reason I placed my vote against the POLI postings going to
sgi.general is because of the (semi)regularity of the posting, NOT
because
of the content of the posting. The content is what dictated the proper
location for such regular posting.
Anyway, stick around Ratman. You play an important roll.
--
Ken Trant <trant@sgi.com> / Third Star to the right
Information Services, / And straight on till
Silicon Graphics, Inc / Morning
Article: 3239 of sgi.general
From: melissa@soar.wpd.sgi.com (Melissa Heinrich)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA.
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 21:59:44 GMT
Lines: 30
I wasn't going to post to sgi.general, having already replied
personally to ratman, but after reading many of the postings
today I wanted to share yet another opinion with all of you
by posting the message I had sent to ratman earlier today.
Here goes:
Well, I for one will miss your postings on sgi.general.
Although I have not been here as long as you, Luis
Oleson and I will be coming up on our third year in
July (we started on the same day). Since I've been here
and have been thru the various changes SGI has gone
thru I felt a connection to the good ol' days whenever I'd
see your postings on sgi.general. The other feeling I had
was that what you brought to sgi.general helped me
tremendously as I feel that I'm rather unaware.
In fact I had gotten so caught up in my own stuff of late
that I truely appreciated your postings. ....especially the
one on the Dalai Lama's talk. How else would I have seen
this or had an opportunity to read that if you had not posted
it? Well, having been a buddhist I know I could have found
a way but reading it on sgi.general was nice and simple.
Heavy sigh. Well, if I have to maintain this connection by
reading sgi.talk.ratical, I'll do it. ....but I'm not happy
about it.
-Melissa
Article: 3240 of sgi.general
From: laurab@sgi.com (Laura Beatty)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 91 22:04:01 GMT
Lines: 18
In article <99989@sgi.sgi.com> luis@solaris.wpd.sgi.com (Luis Oleson) writes:
>Lastly, I'm very sad to see that there are people in this company who will
>openly attack an individual with harsh sarcasm. Words like that are meant
>to hurt and consequently are not very good for making a point, strengthening
>credibility, and garnering support. Life is hard enough. We don't need to
>experience such a lack of kindness, charity, compassion, and understanding
>at the hands of our coworkers.
look guys... i POSTED an apology saying i read it as a *PERSONAL* attack,
(and cancelled the article)
because *MY* mail was included in the original posting. it struck ME
(upon first reading) as being EXTREMELY sarcastic and rude.
but according to some i might have misread the posting made by mr. ratcliffe.
in perpetuating this i can't really say i find THIS type of posting any
better than mine... if you'd like i can continue to apologize. wasting
bandwidth over what appears to be a misunderstanding.
laura
Article: 3242 of sgi.general
From: jrich@cassidy.wpd.sgi.com (Jeanne Rich)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 91 00:14:13 GMT
Lines: 19
To the Ratman:
I'm going to miss your postings here. I find it incomprehensible
that we can't be free to state our views , or post differing
opinions from the norm in this newsgroup. This was one of the
reasons I joined this company, I felt comfortable being able
to express myself, and have not felt the need to hide the fact
that I'm a deadhead, which I know many of my friends have to deal
with in their jobs.
It seems like we are losing one of the great attributes at
SGI--freedom of expression in a large public forum. Speaking in
marketing terms I see this as a great LOSS for the company NOT A WIN!!
BTW - I have been receiving direct mail from the ratman since I was
a graduate student at UCSC before I joined SGI 2 years ago, and
look forward to seeing more amidst all those bug reports.
-jeanne
P.S. Anyway you look at this - it is censorship and it sucks!
Article: 3243 of sgi.general
From: nix@asd.sgi.com (Sold to the highest Buddha)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Followup-To: sgi.talk.ratical.d
Organization: Harlequin Necromances
Date: 26 Apr 91 17:41:45
Lines: 14
P.S. Anyway you look at this - it is censorship and it sucks!
Am I missing something here? Won't I still be able to read Dave's
articles in sgi.talk.ratical? (Great name, btw!)
If I (and anybody else who wants to) can still read the POLI postings,
and people who don't want to read them can avoid them without needing
a kill file, shouldn't we all be just a little bit calmer about all
this?
Followups are directed to sgi.talk.ratical.d
Nick
Article: 3244 of sgi.general
From: tarolli@westcoast.esd.sgi.com (Gary Tarolli)
Subject: Re: farewell to an era, from the ratfool
Summary: sometime I wonder
Keywords: the time has come to shift the venue of my pathology.
Date: 27 Apr 91 00:11:45 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
Lines: 39
you know sometimes I wonder about the benefits of computers. Its seems
to be that they make it much easier to flame people. Its really amazing
to watch the amount and high degree of flaming on the various groups.
Take for example, a recent flaming of the ratman (I am using this ONLY
as an example, not casting judgement on it). Even if I disagreed with
Dave, and I surely do on many issues, I could never flame him like
some of the more violent flames I have seen (on other groups). I believe
it is because I have met and know Dave and believe he is not an
asshole (sorry for the term, but cannot think of a better synonym). Now
an asshole I could easily flame, but not someone I know is not.
However, there are many people on the net whom I never met. I still have
never met Phil Ronzone for example - one of the more vocal posters. So
I do not hve the benefit of having met him first hand, although I am
looking forward to it (that should stop him from flaming me for bringing
up his name :-) ). Therefore, I could possibly see myself flaming him -
because my only knowledge of him is thru his postings. And that is my
major point here - many people "know" each other on the net, but only
thru postings. And much of their conversation is thru the net.
I wonder if the amount and tone of the flames would
be lower if people knew each other "in person" rather than thru ascii
text. And if people had to argue/talk in person (face to face) I think the
discussions would be much different. I know that I am much less
restrained in my postings than I would be face to face with a person.
Anyway, just some thoughts. None of this was specifically directed at
any of the recent postings, I was just using Dave as an example because
I know him. Its funny that computers some times have the opposite effect
that they are supposed to have - for example the great "paperless" office.
Weren't computers supposed to usher in the age of the "paperless" office.
Well if you ask me, there's a hell of a lot more paper in my office and
other people's offices then there was before computers (just look at how
many boxes of paper our MIS line printers eat up every day!)....
--------------------
Gary Tarolli
Article: 3246 of sgi.general
From: myoung@joker.sgi.com (Mark Young)
Subject: Ratman, and the search for an answer to censorship...
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1991 01:25:14 GMT
Wait. I've got a hypothetical situation I'd like to run by everyone...
What if someone started posting sgi.general messages like:
Subject: CHRIST: God Wants You...
Subject: CHRIST: Jesus is your best friend...
Subject: CHRIST: The Holy spirit can help you win at blackjack...
<apologies to christians, I needed a quick example>
Wouldn't it be best to move said messages to sgi.talk.christian?
I'm not knocking the rat's postings...I get them for free in e-mail :-).
All I'm pointing out is that if there is a newsgroup more suited to a
particular thread of discussion, why not move it there?
I'm sorry that dave felt as though he was being censored, I didn't really
see it as such.
And, I'm sorry that laura misread dave's original message, and though the
response should have been via e-mail, and though I didn't totally agree
with it, I can sort of understand why she shot off (feeling offended and
all that).
Hey. Let's all be buddies again. Let's all read sgi.talk.ratical and
discuss postings in sgi.talk.ratical.d.
Let's all drop all of this negativism anyway.
:-)
...m (happy to be able to post an uncensored opinion) young
From rogerk@mips.com Mon Apr 29 08:37:15 1991
From: rogerk@mips.com (Roger B.A. Klorese)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: updating you on "sgi.general" stuff
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 08:36:54 MST
> more and more we see the merging of news corporations
> into massive conglomerates. these are of course just like any other
> business--they're in it to make a profit.
In light of a discussion Mike Portuesi and I had this morning on the train:
1) If we are justifiably suspect of the government's ability to maintain a
free press, and observe that independent press in this age is incapable of
sustaining itself, the choice seems to be between a congolmerate press and no
press at all...
2) Is the fact of a profit-oriented press anything even remotely new? Check
out Halberstam's "The Best and the Brightest" for the long history of this...
---
ROGER B.A. KLORESE MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
MS 6-05 930 DeGuigne Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94088 +1 408 524-7421
rogerk@mips.COM {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!rogerk
"NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for a GENIUS like ME!" --Mad Scientist, "Robot Carnival"
From rogerk@mips.com Mon Apr 29 08:58:37 1991
From: rogerk@mips.com (Roger B.A. Klorese)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: updating you on "sgi.general" stuff
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 08:58:21 MST
...and I'm sure you understand that I'm not arguing (in the "disagreeing with"
sense) the treatise, but rather, arguing (in the sense of discussing) it.
Thanks for making this available, Dave...
---
ROGER B.A. KLORESE MIPS Computer Systems, Inc.
MS 6-05 930 DeGuigne Dr. Sunnyvale, CA 94088 +1 408 524-7421
rogerk@mips.COM {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!mips!rogerk
"NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE for a GENIUS like ME!" --Mad Scientist, "Robot Carnival"
Mail ratcsd rat1 rat2 outside
sorry about the deluge you've just been inundated with. i was simply
trying to catch up with all the stuff i had saved up from early last
week when i was trying to figure out what i was going to do about
my talk w/jmb. remember, for all you sgi insiders, i did say that if
you don't want to be on the e-mail list anymore, please send me a
note saying so, else i'll leave you there as well.
From toma@aeolian.wpd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 09:39:08 1991
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 09:39:05 -0700
From: toma@aeolian.wpd.sgi.com (Tom Abbott)
To: dave
Subject: Re: apologies for the deluge--just catching up.
Keep it coming Dave! Deluges are not a problem. Later.
From greg@xtp.wpd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 09:47:55 1991
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 09:46:38 PDT
From: greg@xtp.wpd.sgi.com
Apparently-To: dave
Dave,
I don't have time to read netnews.
I do read the items that you send out, particularly those
regarding the environment. I'd like to remain on your list
if possible.
Thanks,
g
& r
Subject: no change
mojo man--yer always on *my* list!
(an' i hope you and yer lovely wife will be able to make it
out to the rat estate when i have my first big bash this summer
--sign to close a 30-day escrow on a house right across the st
from rob myers this wednesday! first-time. VERY happy.)
From greg@xtp.wpd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 10:16:28 1991
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 91 10:16:24 PDT
From: greg@xtp.wpd.sgi.com
To: dave
Subject: rat castle
smiles and good wishes for the ratman and
his new rat castle.
g
& r
To: greg@xtp.wpd.sgi.com
Subject: Re: rat castle
AND my new love, renna beinoris, who i met in fresno last september.
she's lithuanian, EXTREMELY rare w/a profound emotional wisdom, 8
yrs older than i, and as of about 2 weeks ago we have arrived at
the decision that she's going to find a job up in sanny cruz (ideal
scenario, south bay is *entirely* out of the picture but yuckumn
if we can find something good in s.c. county or thereabouts) and
move up here asap. a very bursting open time!
From pamt@hathor.csd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 11:16:13 1991
From: pamt@hathor.csd.sgi.com (Pamela Thivierge)
To: dave (dave "who can do? ratmandu!" ratcliffe)
Subject: Re: apologies for the deluge--just catching up.
Cc: pamt@hathor.csd.sgi.com
dave,
I appreciate your articles. keep it up. I put away my T.V. last September
because I had too much to do and found myself veging out. I stated listening
to the radio and find that there's only about 3 talk shows during the day.
It amazes me the lack of knowledge I have about what's going on. I've been
listening on Sunday nights to Dave .... on Outer Limits (?), and his
commentarys on what's what. It's too bad that he's only on Sunday nights.
He has been speaking about how close the U.S. is in becoming a total Police
state.
I don't know how that would effect the entire culture. I think we're
allowing it to happen, but when the full force of it hits, I feel there will
be something similar to what happened after the Russian Revolution. They
killed 66 million of their own people between 1917 and 1960 in their gulag
camps. It started as a way to get rid of the existing royal class and then
moved onto political persons. Now look at them.
Looking at the big picture the goverment in this country is long due for a
change. We are too far removed from our initial roots and most people are
focusing on their personal survial/stressful working lives to see that we are
really going towards a totally collapse. The pedulum is about to swing and
I feel that alot of people will be hurt. I feel that I can only count on my
spiritual beliefs to transistion through this new phase of life.
hope this isn't rattling too much. have a good day.
Pamela Thivierge @ CSD Customer Call Administration
==============================================================================
Word for the day: From: articulation
==============================================================================
LIRP (lurp): Zed would lirp while the others would stand around and listen.
Lirp means:
a. Sing
b. Snap one's finders
c. Tell jokes
==============================================================================
From jneider@moxie.esd.sgi.com Mon Apr 29 18:26:41 1991
From: jneider@moxie.esd.sgi.com (Jacqueline Neider)
To: dave@palladium
Subject: the end of an era
Dave,
I just wanted you to know that your farewell
post last week gave me shivers (of awe) down
my spine, and my eyes were moist when I
finished reading it.
I sure as hell will read talk.ratical.
Thanks for being,
Jackie
Article: 3258 of sgi.general
From: scotth@corp.sgi.com (Scott Henry)
Subject: Ratman's postings, etc
Reply-To: scotth@sgi.com (Scott Henry)
Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: 29 Apr 91 15:53:27
Lines: 17
If the purpose was to reduce the volume in sgi.general, it didn't work. I
would guess that we've posted at least as much to sgi.general discussing
the issue as the Ratman posts in a month or so.
Anyway, the reason I appreciate the creation of sgi.talk.ratical is that I
want to read (or at least skim) his postings, I just don't want to do it
when I read sgi.general. I appreciate the effort he takes to generate the
postings, and I really appreciate the alternate viewpoints.
BTW: are they archived anywhere?
\\scott
--
Scott Henry <scotth@sgi.com> / Traveller on Dragon Wings
Information Services, / Help! My disclaimer is missing!
Silicon Graphics, Inc / Politicians no baka!
Article: 3259 of sgi.general
From: cplin@ninja.wpd.sgi.com
Newsgroups: sgi.general
Subject: Re: The appropriateness of postings (was: Ratman, et al)
Date: 30 Apr 91 00:37:28 GMT
Lines: 27
Mark Young wrote:
>Wait. I've got a hypothetical situation I'd like to run by everyone...
>
>What if someone started posting sgi.general messages like:
>
> Subject: CHRIST: God Wants You...
> Subject: CHRIST: Jesus is your best friend...
> Subject: CHRIST: The Holy spirit can help you win at blackjack...
>
>Wouldn't it be best to move said messages to sgi.talk.christian?
Well, then for anybody who want to sell furniture, we need sgi.sell.furniture.
For anybody who want to rent a house, we need sgi.rent.house and the list can
be go on like this forever. My point is that we should be more tolerate to
the people who post to the news group which you think is not appropiate.
I am sure that you do not read every articles in Mercury News, you just simply
skip the unwanted article by judging the title line. I rather type 'n' to
skip an article after spending one second judging the subject line than miss
the opportunity to buy some used items if the selling notice is posted in a
separate news group. Life is too short, I don't have much time to move around
so many news groups.
/CP Lin
Article: 3260 of sgi.general
From: jneider@moxie.esd.sgi.com (Jacqueline Neider)
Subject: the end of an era
Date: 30 Apr 91 01:23:48 GMT
Sender: guest@sgi.sgi.com
Lines: 13
Yeah, yeah. These kind of things belong
over here, and *those* kinds of things
belong over *there.* Exceptions can
be made.
Dave is one of a kind.
A foolish consistency is the
hobgoblin of little minds.
--Jackie
From danac@morc.asd.sgi.com Tue Apr 30 10:18:21 1991
From: danac@morc.asd.sgi.com (Dana Crom)
To: dave@sgi.com
Subject: Re: Ratman's postings, etc
Newsgroups: sgi.general
References: <SCOTTH.91Apr29155327@hoshi.corp.sgi.com>
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Status: RO
Dave, I am glad to here that there *is* a place that I can go to read your
older postings, and your new groups perform the same function for your new
articles. One of the others said it better, but for me sgi.talk.ratical
makes it easier to read your posts. Some days I am in a hurry and just
'n' any non work related stuff on sgi.general; since you now have a separate
group, all your posts are still there for when I have the time to read them.
I may not always agree with you - in fact I may *seldom* agree with you -
but I have been reading your stuff for the last year and I am glad that
you are here. Keep on posting!
--
-----------------------+------------------------+------------------------------
Dana Crom | Silicon Graphics, Inc. | Smile - let them *WONDER*
danac@morc.asd.sgi.com | (415) 335-1449 | what you've been up to . . .
From mjf@pelican.csd.sgi.com Wed May 1 19:02:20 1991
From: mjf@pelican.csd.sgi.com (Michael Fong)
To: dave@corp.sgi.com
Subject: SCCN
Dave,
I stopped by this evening to pick up the 13 copies of SCCN.
I'll use the previous distribution list unless you say otherwise.
As far as being "uninvited" off sgi.general for political postings,
I thumb my nose at it for one major reason; you cannot separate
out politics into a tidy compartment.
The word "prophetic" means to speak truth to power. We need to
constantly be warned about how we are doing injustice to other
peoples, nations, and nature. If others have differing ideas of
what that is, let them speak. But forget this bullshit about a
"need" for other views to "balance" the picture.
I'll try to read sgi.politics anyway. Bogged down but not for long.
Mike
~ mjf@csd.sgi.com Michael Fong ~
~ ____ ~
~ "Miss Otis regrets she's unable /_|__\--, ~
~ to lunch today, mad'am..." []Oo. `0-----0' ~
Article: 3283 of sgi.general
From: coolidge@speaker.sgi.com (Don Coolidge)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Summary: On The Third Hand...
Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc., Mtn. View, CA
Date: Thu, 2 May 91 01:45:46 GMT
Lines: 92
First off, this isn't primarily a reply to Mike, but I'm including parts of
his latest post because they summarize one side of this discussion very
well, and I want to address those points in the paragraphs following.
In article <1991Apr27.003815.10255@twilight.wpd.sgi.com> mikey@sgi.com (Mike Yang) writes:
>As a somewhat impartial observer to this, but a dedicated news reader,
>here's how I see all this.
>
>I do *not* see censorship rearing its ugly head. I do not see people
>criticizing the content of the postings. I do not see people trying
>to impose their views on others.
>
>What people wanted was the political postings to go where they
>belonged - sgi.talk.politics. This way, those individuals interested
>in such postings would subscribe to that newsgroup and read those
>articles. For those of us that aren't, we won't subscribe.
>
[......]
>
>Well, the political postings might be orders of magnitude less
>frequent than Cypress bug reports, but the same idea holds.
>
>We're not trying to sensor you. We're just trying to organize things
^
>so that we can all read news most efficiently.
My impression was always that sgi.talk.politics was intended to be the place
where political postings were discussed. There's no requirement that all
political discussions actually originate there - but that's clearly where
talk about them should take place. However, anyone who's ever delved into
the triple swamps of talk.politics, ca.politics, and ba.politics knows that
those newsgroups are just ghettos where the unconvertable rave and flame at
each other, with nary a new idea ever being actually heard or crossing into
any poster's consciousness. As a result, nobody _ever_ subscribes to those
groups either to stimulate thought or to actually learn something him/herself -
only to join the fray.
Limiting ratman's postings to sgi.talk.politics (_or_ sgi.talk.ratman, or any
specialized group) consigns it to (and helps create) a similar ghetto. And,
yes, that is censonship. Only those who already have an axe of some political
color to grind will spend any time looking in to comment. No one really learns
anything, neither those who already share ratman's decidedly liberal view of
the Constitution (like myself), nor those with differing views.
OK, so maybe we shouldn't expect politically fossilized people of either
persuasion to change their stripes. This, however, totally misses the point
of ratman's postings: to present potentially important ideas, opinions, and
(most importantly) facts to people who would not otherwise confront them, who
may not yet have declared halt to their intellectual and ethical growth, and
who might benefit from an opportunity to experience a more open view of the
world. (You gotta admit, this is not the stuff you'll hear on the 6 o'clock
news...)
We all have our own worldview, based on our upbringing, our values, and our
experiences. Of course, those worldviews differ. And every one of them is
incomplete (anyone who disagrees with that is obviously a subversive, card-
carrying Republican :^). The greater range of ideas and experiences available
to each of us, the more complete our picture becomes.
ratman's postings offer just that expanded focus. I could even argue that
his postings are not at all political, but are rather philosophical in nature,
and as such should _not_ be discussed in sgi.talk.politics.
Sure, some of the postings strike a nerve in some people. That's obviously
their intent. Lots of Phil R.'s do the same thing (in different people, of
course). Fortunately, most of the time Phil presents his side of the coin
with both imagination and humor. As a result, I've seen no overt attempt
to muzzle him, or push his opinions behind the sofa where nobody has to trip
over them. Both Phil and ratman belong in a general forum, because they both
have something to say that all of us should take time to listen to.
Consider the business we're all in. Any of us who decides that (s)he already
knows it all, and never again needs to learn anything new about computers,
visualization, or the needs of the computer-buying public, will soon find
him/herself either out on the street, or thrown in the dustbin as our industry
passes on by. So we keep an open mind, because you never know when the next
idea to come by might be another Geometry Engine. Shouldn't we be at least
as careful about our lives as we are about our jobs?
So, I'd much rather see ratman's postings returned to sgi.general, where
they belong and can do some good. And I'd also like to see responsible,
informative postings from the oposite end of the political spectrum (despite
some of my posted opinions, I assure you that I actually respect well-thought
and well-presented arguments from both sides of the picture. Flames, strawmen,
and ad-hominem arguments I can do without, though). And I'd like them all to
include POLI in their header (buiding a killfile takes seconds, even for the
philosophically phossilized :^).
And I'd like each of the postings to include:
Followups to sgi.talk.politics, of course.
- Don Coolidge
Article: 3292 of sgi.general
Newsgroups: sgi.general
From: probins@bubba.wpd.sgi.com (Paul Robins)
Subject: Re: Censorship and Harshness (was: farewell to an era...)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA.
References: <99989@sgi.sgi.com>
<1991Apr26.220401.8923@odin.corp.sgi.com>
<1991Apr27.001413.11724@odin.corp.sgi.com>
<1991Apr27.003815.10255@twilight.wpd.sgi.com>
<1991May2.014546.10507@odin.corp.sgi.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 91 16:23:56 GMT
Lines: 23
I am new to SGI (4 weeks), so I was able to arrive from Network
Equipment Technologies just in time to read "farewell to an era...".
It was a real disappointment to me to see progressive politics and
politics in general consigned to "talk.ratical".
Don Coolidege's article states eloquently the point I wanted to
make about censorship. Removing non-mainstream (especially
progressive) views from sgi.general works in the same way that our
free society does. While there is no censorship per se, exclusion
of ideas that are different and provocative from general
consumption has the same effect.
And this is damaging both to those bringing the ideas, who
hopefully are as able to change and deepen their understandings,
as well as those receiving them.
Using talk.ratical means preaching to the converted at best. At
worst it means that information and ideas are limited to a small
substratum at sgi rather than the general popluation.
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