1942
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY,
TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL
DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS
_______________________________________________
CORETTA SCOTT KING, et al,
Plaintiffs,
Vs. Case No. 97242
LOYD JOWERS, et al,
Defendants.
_______________________________________________
PROCEEDINGS
December 7th, 1999
VOLUME XIII
_______________________________________________
Before the Honorable James E. Swearengen,
Division 4, judge presiding.
_______________________________________________
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI,
RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
COURT REPORTERS
Suite 2200, One Commerce Square
Memphis, Tennessee 38103
(901) 529-1999
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1943
- APPEARANCES -
For the Plaintiff: DR. WILLIAM PEPPER
Attorney at Law
New York City, New York
For the Defendant:
MR. LEWIS GARRISON
Attorney at Law
Memphis, Tennessee
Court Reported by:
MR. BRIAN F. DOMINSKI
Certificate of Merit
Registered Professional
Reporter
Daniel, Dillinger,
Dominski, Richberger &
Weatherford
22nd Floor
One Commerce Square
Memphis, Tennessee 38103
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1944
- INDEX -
WITNESS: PAGE/LINE NUMBER
JAMES EARL RAY
DEPOSITION EXCERPTS READ...........1945, 10
BETTY JEAN SPATES
DEPOSITION EXCERPTS READ............2105, 10
MOTION FOR DIRECTED
VERDICT............................. 2131, 1
EXHIBIT PAGE/LINE
Exhibit 37..................... 2103, 12
Exhibit 38..................... 2104, 19
Exhibit 39..................... 2130, 6
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1945
THE COURT: We're ready for the
jury.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Good morning. We
have some more excitement in store for you.
Mr. --
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, we'd
like to read the latter part of Mr. Ray's
deposition at this time.
THE COURT: All right.
(The conclusion of the March
12th, 1995, deposition of James Earl Ray was
read in its entirety to the jury with the
excerpts as noted as follows:)
MR. BLEDSOE: "James Earl Ray,
having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows, direct examination,
by Mr. Garrison.
Q. Mr. Ray, when we adjourned the
deposition yesterday, we had gotten to the
point where you had gone in, I believe, to
look at some rifles. I want to back up just
a bit before we start back with that and let
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1946
me ask you something.
Have you ever been known as
G-e-r-r-y, Gerry Ray? Have you ever used
that alias?
A. No, that's my brother's name.
Q. Okay. What about George Ray,
have you ever used that alias?
A. No, that's my father's name.
Q. Okay. What about Gery, Rayn,
R-a-y-n?
A. R-a-y-n? R-a-y-n-s -- you're
not talking about Ryan, R-y-a-n, are you?
Q. No, sir. I'm asking if you have
ever used the name of G-e-r-r-y, R-a-y-n?
A. No. That's another one --
that's my brother's alias.
Q. Okay. And what about G-e-r-r-y,
Gerry Raynes, R-a-y-n-e-s?
A. No, I have never heard of that
name.
Q. How about G-e-r-r-y,
R-a-i-n-e-s, have you ever used that alias?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What about Gerry Ryan,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1947
R-y-a-n, have you ever used that alias?
A. No, I have never used that name.
Q. Okay. Going back just a bit
before we get back to where we were
yesterday. You came through Selma, Alabama
from New Orleans; am I right, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you spent the night there,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. At the Mango (Phonetic) Hotel --
Motel?
A. Yes. It was on -- it was on a
road. It wasn't in no city or town. It was
just a motel on the road.
Q. And, in fact, Dr. King was there
at the same time, wasn't he?
A. No, he wasn't.
Q. You're sure about that?
A. Well, I have checked the
records, and he was somewhere -- 100 miles
from there or somewhere.
Q. Okay. Then from Selma you went
on to Birmingham, did you not, sir?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1948
A Yes.
Q. Okay. And Raul had told you he
would meet you in Birmingham?
A. At the Starlight, yes.
Q. Okay. And what was the purpose
of going to Birmingham first?
A. Well, I was supposed to meet him
in New Orleans. When I got there, I called
his contact number, and he told me to go
ahead and meet him in Birmingham, that he had
done went to Birmingham.
Q. Okay. And you were going to
meet at the Starlight in Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you meet him?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then where did you go
from there?
A. We went from there to Atlanta.
Q. Okay. At this point had he
mentioned anything to you about any guns?
A. Yes. He mentioned them
previously, but I don't know just when all he
mentioned it. I know he mentioned it in New
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1949
Orleans. He may have mentioned it in
December of '67. He may have mentioned them
before that, but I know there was guns
mentioned in Mexico.
Q. What I'm wondering, Mr. Ray, is
this: If he had mentioned to you about guns
in New Orleans and Birmingham, what was the
reason you went to Atlanta and then back to
Birmingham to buy a gun?
A. Well, I don't know. He wanted
to go to Atlanta. I didn't ask him why he
wanted to go there.
Q. Okay. Did he ride with you to
Atlanta from Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you spend the night
in Birmingham?
A. No. We left there -- I met him
at the Starlight, and we left there probably
10 or 15 minutes after I got there.
Q. To go on to Atlanta?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, you were in
Atlanta, and you stayed there. I believe you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1950
said the person that you -- at the place
where you were staying was intoxicated?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he ever see you with
Raul--
A. Yes.
Q. -- this gentleman?
He did see you with Raul?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Other than that gentleman
there at this location do you know if anyone
ever saw you with Raul at any point that you
know now who those people would have been?
A. Well, of course, these documents
are all classified. I think probably the
barmaid at the Starlight Lounge probably seen
us together because we was in there several
times, and also there was some people there
at the -- at this place where the intoxicated
landlord was in Atlanta.
Q. Uh-huh.
A. Someone apparently gave a
statement to the FBI that they saw me with
someone else. But I give that to a reporter
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1951
named McClellan, WSM Television in about
1979. I give the document to him, and I
never did get it back.
Q. Well, according to the FBI
report, the gentleman who operated the
rooming house in Atlanta says he never saw
you with anyone else.
A. Well, I don't know. He stayed
drunk all the time, so it's difficult -- what
he saw and what he didn't see.
Q. Okay. Now, were getting back to
the gun. You had gone to the place, the
Aeromarine Supply, to buy a gun. And when
you got there, what time of day was it
roughly?
A. It must have been sometime
around -- between eleven and one o'clock.
Q. Okay. And what day of the --
was this April date the 2nd, 3rd, 4th? When
was this that you --
A. Well, this apparently was March
the 28th or 29th, and I know it was on a
Friday.
Q. When you went in there, did
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1952
someone say, can I wait on you or can I help
you? What was done?
A. Yes. Well, the salesman, you
know, he just asked me what I wanted and what
he could do for me, and --
Q. Okay. What did you later learn
his name to be?
A. I've forgotten now. There was a
salesman there, and I think there was also a
co-owner there, but I can't recall either one
of them's name.
Q. Okay. All right. You just --
you told him you wanted to purchase a gun for
deer hunting?
A. I think something about a large
bore deer rifle. I believe that was the --
Q. And did he have one behind the
counter or where did he get the gun from?
A. I really don't recall. It's
kind of a big -- well, it wasn't a warehouse,
but it was a fairly big place, and I don't
know where he got it at.
Q. Did he put the gun in your hands
and let you look at it and feel of it and see
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1953
how heavy it was?
A. I really can't recall. I think
he probably did show it -- hand it to me or
something like that. I wanted to make it
appear like I knew something about it
probably.
Q. And how long did you look at it
before you decided to purchase it?
A. Well, not very long.
Q. Well, five minutes, ten minutes,
fifteen?
A. Probably less than that,
probably a couple of minutes.
Q. Did you look at any mechanism on
the gun to see how it operated?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. All right. And did you look at
any other guns where you actually were shown
some other guns?
A. I looked at some guns on a rack
up over on the -- on the -- not on his side
of the counter, on my side of the counter.
They were -- I believe they were Mausers. It
was a foreign gun -- foreign made rifles, and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1954
I asked him about the price of them, and --
Q. Did you actually handle those
guns?
A. I doubt it. I may have touched
one of them or something, but I don't believe
I handled them. No, I don't think so.
Q. Okay. How much did you pay for
this gun?
A. I really can't recall. It's
probably over $200 or somewhere around there,
I suppose.
Q. Okay. Now, you were in
Birmingham. And had Raul ridden from
Atlanta back to Birmingham with you?
A. From Birmingham -- how is --
Q. From Atlanta back to Birmingham.
You had gone back to Birmingham from
Atlanta to buy a gun?
A. Yes. He had ridden with me.
Q. He had waited where?
A. Where did he wait?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. He waited in the -- I'm kind of
inclined to think he waited in the Starlight
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1955
Club. And then I went and rented the motel,
the Five Points, and I think I picked him up.
I think he had something to do or
something. I'm not --- my memory is not too
well on this.
Q. Okay. When you purchased the
gun, then you had gone back to meet him?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he take the gun and
examine it and look down the scope and check
the mechanism and so forth?
A. Well, he looked it over, and I
don't know how close he looked it over, but
he just said it was the wrong type or the
wrong bore or something. And so that's when
I -- I had the brochure. So I just gave him
the brochure and, you know, just told him to
pick one out and I would exchange it.
Q. Mr. Ray, when you were in the --
the times you were in New Orleans, did you
ever go to where Raul lived?
A. No, I never did. I don't know
where he lived. I did contact him by
telephone.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1956
Q. Okay. Now, he gave you $700?
A. I think somewhere around $700,
yes. I think that -- I don't -- I think the
$700 wasn't just to purchase the gun. It was
for other things, but he didn't specify what
other things.
Q. Had you already purchased the
camera equipment then?
A. Yes, I had the camera equipment.
Q. Where did you purchase that?
A. I purchased all of it in
Birmingham except for one item, and I
couldn't get -- there was one item I couldn't
get. I think they ordered it from Chicago,
but I had to leave Birmingham before it
arrived.
Q. Okay. You left New Orleans and
had gone to Birmingham and then on to
Atlanta. How many times had you been in
Birmingham before this time?
A. Well, just the one time when I
was there in September -- no -- yes,
September, in the latter part of August, '67.
Q. Okay. And how many times had
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1957
you been in Atlanta before this time?
A. That's the only time I had ever
been there.
Q. And you hail never been in
Memphis other than just coming through maybe
up until --
A. Right. As I mentioned -- I
think I mentioned yesterday in 1955 I went
with my uncle to Florida, and he may have
went through some of those towns, but I don't
have any recollection of which towns he went
through.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, let me ask you
something. As you know, there was a map
found in Atlanta after the assassination.
You know that, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. It had some circles on it,
didn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make a map of New
Orleans where you circled anything?
A. I circled some maps and made
marks on some maps, but I don't know just
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1958
which ones they were. I think Attorney
Pepper, he has some of the maps.
Q. What about a map of Birmingham,
did you ever make a map there and circle any
locations?
A. I really don't -- I really can't
recall.
Q. What about Memphis, did you ever
make one of it and circle any locations?
A. I didn't -- I don't think I had
a map of Memphis.
Q. Okay. You took the gun back to
Raul, and he said he wasn't satisfied with
it, and you called the Aeromarine Supply back
and told them you wanted to exchange it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go back over the same
day?
A. Yes. I took the rifle -- I took
the rifle back the same day, yes.
Q. Okay. And they told you to come
back and get another -- the next day when you
picked it up?
A. Yes, sometime the next morning.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
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Q. Where did you stay that night in
Birmingham?
A. I stayed at the Five Points.
Q. Did Raul stay there with you?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Do you know where he stayed?
A. No. I think I took him down to
the -- to the post office. That was right
across the street from the Starlight, and I
don't know where he went.
Q. What time did you take him to
the post office?
A. That would be on Friday. Well,
it was after I came back from there. I
imagine it would be about three or four
o'clock.
Q. Then how did you know to meet
him the next day? Where did you know --
A. Where did I know where to --
Q. To meet Raul the next day. You
were going to meet him the next day or --
A. No, no. He give -- he give me
an address in Memphis, the New Rebel Motel.
Q. So you weren't going to meet him
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1960
anymore?
A. No, that was it. He said he was
going somewhere else.
Q. Now, we're at the point where
you haven't picked the gun up yet. Now, did
he see the gun anymore after -- I'm talking
about the second gun -- did he see it anymore
before you arrived in Memphis?
A. No.
Q. He never saw it anymore?
A. No, not after that.
Q. All right. Now, we're talking
about March the 28th or 29th. How long did
you stay in Birmingham before you left?
A. Well, I left there sometime the
next day after I got the rifle, which would
have either been the 29th or 30th.
Q. Of March?
A. Yes.
Q. And you left Birmingham and
drove toward Memphis?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Where did you stop at?
Where is the first stop you made after you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1961
left Birmingham?
A. I'm almost certain it was
Decatur.
Q. Stayed there one night?
A. Yes.
Q. When did he tell you to meet him
in Memphis?
A. That was on April 3rd.
Q. Okay. And then after -- you
stayed in Decatur one night, and where did
you stay there?
A. I don't know the name of the
motel.
Q. What was the next place you
stayed?
A. The next place I stayed would
have been the -- there is two towns up there.
One of them is Tuscumbia, and I don't --
Q. Florence and Muscle Shoals,
they're all three together there.
A. Well, Tuscumbia is right across
the -- right across the way from another
town. It's not Muscle Shoals. It's --
Q. It's not Florence --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1962
A. Tuscumbia is on the right-hand
side, and the other town is on the left-hand
side. I stayed in the town on the left-hand
side.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know --
Q. Okay. You stayed there one
night?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You were driving the
Mustang?
A. Yes.
Q. And had the -- where was the gun
in the car? Was it in the trunk or up in the
seat, back seat or where?
A. No. It was in the trunk.
Q. Did you have any other gun?
A. I had another gun, but I didn't
have it with me.
Q. What kind of other gun did you
have?
A. Well, I had the .38 that I had
purchased in Birmingham, but I left it in the
rooming house. I had it buried downstairs.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
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Q. Okay. When did you purchase it
in Birmingham?
A. The .38?
Q. The .38.
A. Well, sometimes -- when I
arrived there in August, the latter part of
August, I must have purchased it sometime in
September.
Q. And how did you do that?
A. I -- there was a want ad,
classifieds, from a private party.
Q. Okay. How much did you pay for
it?
A. I believe it was $75.
Q. Okay. You left then. Where was
the next stop you made after the stop in --
somewhere near Tuscumbia, Alabama?
A. I went to Corinth, Mississippi.
Q. And where did you stay there,
Mr. Ray?
A. I thought it was the Southern
Motel, but we have never been able to
establish it one way or another. Most of
these records have been -- some records have
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1964
been destroyed after we started checking on
them, the hotel registration cards.
Q. What day did Raul tell you to
meet him in Memphis at the Rebel --
A. It was on April 3rd.
Q. What time?
A. Well, he didn't give me a
specific time. He just told me to check in
there, and he would -- you know, he would
meet me there.
Q. And what name did he tell you to
check in under?
A. Well, I assumed -- he didn't
tell me any name. I assumed it would be Eric
Galt because I never checked in a motel
under, you know, a different name because the
police usually check your license plates at
the motels.
Q. Now, the car you were driving
was registered to Eric Galt, and you had an
Alabama driver's license?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You left Corinth,
Mississippi what date?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
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A. Well, that would have been April
the 2nd.
Q. And drove on where from there?
A. I drove on to Memphis.
Q. Okay. How did you find the New
Rebel Motel?
A. Well, I didn't find it at that
time. I -- on April 2nd I checked into the
Desoto Motel, which is right across the line
from a -- from the -- from Memphis.
Q. Okay. And you spent the night
of April the 2nd there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Why did you go there?
A. Well, it wasn't April 3rd yet.
I was going to the New Rebel April 3rd.
Q. But why did you choose this one
in Mississippi?
A. Well, there is no specific
reason. I didn't want to stay downtown, and
so I just --
Q. But the New Rebel wasn't
downtown?
A. Well, it wasn't, but at that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
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time I don't believe I knew where it was. I
think I found out the address the next day.
Q. Okay. Did you have any kind of
a map where you were using to get your
directions since you had never been in
Memphis?
A. I probably had a map of
Mississippi and Alabama, but I don't know. I
had so many maps. I had 20 or 30. I don't
recall just exactly. There is a list of all
the maps that I had, and the FBI has them,
but I can't recall, you know, maps of foreign
countries and whatever.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when did you
find out Dr. King would be in Memphis?
A. When did I find out?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, I found out, I guess,
about April the -- April 4th. I would say
about 6:30.
Q. You didn't find out on April the
3rd he would be in Memphis or April the 2nd
he was planning to be in Memphis?
A. No, I didn't. I didn't know
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1967
anything about it.
Q. Well, now, you know the FBI
found a Memphis paper where it had a detailed
account of where he was going to be. You
know that, don't you?
A. That I had a Memphis paper?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes. I always buy a paper when
I go into town.
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, I was practicing
law back then right downtown, and there were
headlines every day where he was going to be.
Now, you knew he was going to be there,
didn't you?
A. No, I didn't. There is all
kinds of headlines in newspapers. They don't
particularly interest me, what the headlines
are.
Q. You didn't read the headlines --
it was all on the news, on the tv, all in the
headlines because I saw it every day and was
part of all this, and it was headlines --
everybody knew he was going to be there, all
the trouble they had. Now, you knew about
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1968
that, didn't you?
A. No, I had no idea about it. I
mean I probably knew about it if I read the
paper, but it didn't stick in my mind. If
the President would have been there, it
wouldn't have any -- you know, I wouldn't
have been interested in it.
Q. But you didn't know about all
the riots they were having down in downtown
that they had had a day or two before, and it
was kind of dangerous to be downtown and
everybody knew that? You didn't know about
that?
A. No. I just come into town.
Q. Well, it was all in the
newspapers. It was all on the news.
Everybody knew about it, on the national
news.
A. Everyone knew. I don't think
everyone knew about it. There is 250 million
people in the country. I doubt if --
Q. I doubt if there was very many
if they watched the news that didn't know
about it. And you're telling us you didn't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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know about that?
A. No, I didn't. I may have knew
about it, but it didn't stick -- you know, it
didn't hang up in my memory or anything.
Q. Okay. Did you ever stay in the
Pontotoc Hotel?
A. Pontotoc in Memphis? No.
Q. You never did?
A. No.
Q. Okay. You left Alabama, arrived
at the Desoto Motel down in -- just across
the state line and stayed there one night?
A. Yes.
Q. What time did you get there?
A. It would have been sometime in
the afternoon because I was driving real slow
from Birmingham to Memphis. And I had
estimated it was sometime in the afternoon.
I didn't even -- I didn't even go into
Memphis proper that day. I just stayed on
the edge of town, and --
Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you
something. If you were in Corinth,
Mississippi -- there's a highway called
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1970
Highway 72. It's the only highway leading
toward Memphis, the main highway.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you take that?
A. That's apparently the one I
took, yes.
Q. Where did you get off of that to
go to Mississippi because you had to make a
detour off of that somewhere?
A. Well, I'm not familiar with
Memphis at that time. I'm still not, but I
just -- there was no reason for me to go
downtown.
Q. Did you drive into Tennessee?
A. Yes. I was in Memphis, yes.
Q. You actually drove into Memphis
before you went to the Desoto Motel?
A. Yes, the outskirts, yes.
Q. All right. You had gone on then
to the Desoto Motel, and what time did you
check out of there?
A. Well, whatever the time --
usually I stayed until they -- you have to
leave. It probably would have been twelve or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1971
one o'clock whenever they --
Q. Okay. And then you proceeded
from there to the New Rebel Motel?
A. Yes.
Q. Out on Lamar?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then how long were you
there before Raul appeared?
A. Well, I would say I got there
maybe one or two o'clock, and he appeared
sometime that night. I know it was raining,
and it must have been nine o'clock.
Q. You had a room there and had
your car parked close to it?
A. Yes, right in front of it.
Q. He just came and appeared?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What was the extent of
your conversation with him?
A. Well, he just came in. It had
been raining, and I think he had a raincoat
on, and we started talking. And he asked me
if I had brought the rifle up, and I said,
yes. And I don't remember all the small
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1972
talk. And then subsequently he told me to --
you know, he wanted me to meet him at a Jim's
Grill the next day at I think it was three
o'clock.
Q. Did he tell you where Jim's
Grill was located?
A. Yes. I think he had it wrote
down, the name and the street, but I don't --
Q. You still had the gun in your
possession in the car at that time?
A. No. I had -- the gun was in the
motel.
Q. Okay. Did he look at it?
A. Yes. He took it with him, yes.
Q. He said, this is the gun I want?
He had never seen it up to that point?
A. Well, he knew what it was
because he picked it out of the brochure.
Q. But he had never seen it up to
that point as far as you know up until this
time?
A. No. He had never seen it, not
that one, no.
Q. All right. And did he indicate
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1973
to you why he wanted to take the gun with him
since you had had it in your possession?
A. I assumed he wanted to show it
to someone.
Q. All right. Who did he say he
was going to show it to?
A. He didn't say. I just assumed
that because he was supposed to meet some,
you know, gun dealers.
Q. Okay. And he told you to meet
him at Jim's Grill the next day?
A. Yes.
Q. What time was it that he
appeared roughly?
A. Did I -- what time did I appear
there?
Q. What time did Raul appear at
the New Rebel Motel to see you?
A. Well, I would say it was around
nine o'clock.
Q. At night?
A. It was nighttime, yes.
Q. Okay. How did he get there?
A. I really don't know.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1974
Q. Okay. How long did he stay?
A. I don't think he stayed over 15
minutes at the most.
Q. He just told you to meet him the
next day at Jim's Grill?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And when he left,
how did he leave?
A. I really don't know. I didn't
pay no attention after he left. It was
raining, so I really wasn't interested in
knowing how he left.
Q. Mr. Ray, did you not find it
strange after all these months that this man
would just simply appear out of nowhere and
then vanish into nowhere? You never did see
him come up with anybody. You never saw
where he stayed all these months.
A. Well, I assume when someone is
involved in criminal activities, they don't,
you know, tell their associates everything
they're doing. I never saw him with anyone
except the individual in Nuevo Laredo,
Mexico, and I just never made any inquiries.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1975
I have had, you know, experience
with criminals, and usually if they're paying
you, you don't make any inquiries. I know if
I was paying someone, I wouldn't, you know,
be telling him all my personal business.
Q. All right. Then you stayed in
the New Rebel Motel that night, and left then
the next day at what time?
A. Well, whenever I checked out. I
think -- I would say it was about twelve or
one o'clock. I'm just estimating that.
Q. And where did you go then?
A. Well, I just drove around. I
just stalled around more or less until 3:00
o'clock or 3:30, and I don't know exactly
where I drove at. I know I was driving
around the edge of town. I think I went
across the Mississippi line or near the
Mississippi line. And subsequently I had a
flat tire, and I changed tires on the car.
Q. Where did you have a flat tire?
A. It was along the edge of
Memphis. It was -- it wasn't, you know,
downtown. I think it was -- it could have
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1976
been across the line of Mississippi, but it
was right on the edge of it. It wasn't no
residential district.
Q. Okay. Did you change the tire?
A. Yes. I just took the wheel off
and put another one on, yes.
Q. All right. Then where did you
go?
A. From there I intended to have a
meeting with Raul at the Jim's Grill. So I
drove to a commercial parking lot, which is
-- it's not downtown. I would say it's
about 10 or 12 blocks from downtown because I
could see the Memphis skyline. And I checked
in there, and I think I asked the attendant
something about Main Street or something, and
anyway -- I can't recall just exactly. So I
left and started walking toward downtown
Memphis.
Q. How did you know it was towards
downtown since you had never been there?
A. Well, I could see the tall
buildings in the general area down there, so
I assumed that was --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1977
Q. Okay. There are several streets
downtown with tall buildings. How did you
know which street to get on?
A. How did I know? I don't -- I
didn't particularly know. I just walked down
toward the -- is what you call the
residential -- the high rise --
Q. Okay.
A. I may have asked the attendant.
I don't know. I probably asked him something
about it.
Q. What was the weather like that
day?
A. It seemed to be all right. I
don't know whether --
Q. Was it raining or sun shining?
A. No, I don't believe it was
raining. I think the sun was shining as far
as I know.
Q. Okay. All right. Did you then
eventually arrive at Jim's Grill?
A. No, I didn't know where it was
at. I think I got -- when I got downtown, I
asked a policeman for directions about -- I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1978
think I asked him where South Main Street
was. I don't think I asked him where Jim's
Grill was. And he give me directions, and
then -- anyway, when I got on Main Street,
then I located Jim's Grill then.
Q. Okay. When you asked the
policeman for directions, how far was that
from Jim's Grill? I mean are we looking at a
block, half a block, ten blocks?
A. No. I think it was a little --
I would just guess it was eight or ten
blocks. I wasn't --
Q. Okay. Were you -- were you on
Main Street then?
A. I don't believe I was. I'm not
positive.
Q. And did you go to Jim's Grill?
A. No. I went -- I got on Main,
and I was going south on Main, and I stopped
at a -- it was a -- some type of a bar that
sold alcohol there, and I asked the lady --
now, this is on the right-hand side of Main
Street going south -- and I asked the barmaid
where Jim's Grill was. Now, I ordered a beer
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1979
while I was in there. And she told me it was
-- it was a couple -- a couple of blocks --
a block and a half or so down the street on
the other side of the street.
And I also -- it's just -- at
this time I also saw -- mentioned I saw the
two individuals that I mentioned yesterday
that I thought perhaps were -- well, you get
kind of -- you know, you're kind of nervous
under those conditions. Anyway, I thought
maybe they were -- they appeared to be
watching me or something.
Q. How were you dressed?
A. I just had a dark suit on.
Q. With a tie?
A. Yes.
Q. White shirt?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have a coat with you,
overcoat?
A. No.
Q. It wasn't cold enough that day
to have an overcoat?
A. No, I don't believe it was.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1980
Q. Okay. Then where did you go?
Okay. Let me back up. You were
in this place, and you saw two individuals.
Were they the only ones in there -- only
customers in this place?
A. No, they weren't.
Q. There were other customers?
A. Yes.
Q. They were -- and they were
looking at you for some reason, and you were
suspicious of them?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you stay in there?
A. I imagine four or five minutes
at the most.
Q. Did these individuals leave
before you did or did you leave first?
A. They apparently left before I
did.
Q. Did you watch them the whole
time you were in there?
A. No, I didn't stare at them. I
just got the feeling they was watching me,
and so --
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1981
Q. Okay. Then you left, and where
did you go then?
A. I went to Jim's Grill then.
Q. Okay. How far was Jim's Grill
from this location where you were?
A. I don't think it was over a
block and a half or two blocks. I couldn't
be more specific than that. It was on the
other side of the street.
Q. Okay. How did you recognize
Jim's Grill?
A. I think there was a sign there
or something, you know.
Q. Where was it?
A. Where was the sign?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I don't have no idea now at this
time.
Q. Was there any lettering on the
windows or on the door that you recall
saying, Jim's Grill?
A. No, I can't recall that at all.
There was something on there.
Q. So you entered Jim's Grill off
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1982
of Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have anything with
you in your hands? Were you carrying
anything, briefcase or anything?
A. No, I wasn't carrying anything,
no.
Q. You walked into Jim's Grill, and
what did you see in there?
A. Well, these two individuals were
in there, and Raul wasn't in there, so I
just -- I think I ordered a beer in there.
I'm not 100 percent certain, but I may have.
Q. Can you tell us something about
Jim's Grill, what you remember seeing about
it when you first entered? Was it a place
where there was just a bar or were there
tables or tell us what you remember.
A. Well, my recollection was --
and, of course, I found out subsequently my
recollection is wrong -- it was on -- on the
left-hand side there was a bar, and on the
right-hand side there was sort of booths.
And subsequently I learned it was just the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1983
opposite. The bar was on the right-hand
side, and the booths was on the left-hand
side. I think the -- the back part of the
bar seemed to be a -- it might have been
lower than the front part.
Q. Lower?
A. Yes, I believe it was. I think
they might have served food back there.
That's what my recollection is.
Q. Were you seated?
A. Pardon?
Q. Were you seated at any time?
A. No, I was up in the front.
Q. At the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. Who waited on you?
A. Well, some young lady. She was
black or white. I can't recall just --
Q. About what time did you arrive
at the bar roughly, Mr. -- I mean Jim's Grill
roughly, Mr. Ray? Are we looking at two
o'clock, three o'clock, four o'clock, what?
A. No. It was sometime after
three. I don't think it was a whole lot
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1984
after three.
Q. How many customers did they have
in there?
A. There didn't appear to be many
in there at all from what I could see.
Q. You saw these other two
individuals you had seen earlier in there.
Where were they seated, up at the bar or were
they at a table?
A. No. They were down further from
where I was, and there was -- I think there
was a bar. They just glanced up.
Q. These two individuals, were they
black or white?
A. They were white.
Q. Okay. And did they have any
rings in their ear or anything like that?
A. I don't recall what -- I don't
recall anything about one of them. The one I
do recall appeared to be -- looked to me --
seemed to be out of place. He had a coat on.
He was about five foot eight or nine, and
he looked like he weighed about a hundred and
-- kind of a fairly strong build -- a
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1985
hundred and seventy pounds or something like
that.
Q. And did he have long hair, short
hair?
A. No. I think he just looked
normal.
Q. Okay. When you went into Jim's
Grill, did they seem to be looking at you
some more?
A. Yes. I think he did -- I think
I seen them, and they just glanced up. And I
was just in there a few minutes and that was
--
Q. Did you leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Where did you go from
there?
A. Well, I intended then to go down
and pick up the Mustang at the commercial
parking lot and park in the general area of
Jim's Grill.
Q. Now, the Mustang is, what, seven
or eight blocks away, something like that?
A. Yes. It was at least seven or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1986
eight blocks away.
Q. Okay.
A. It could have been a little bit
farther.
Q. You stayed in Jim's Grill about
15 minutes?
A. No, I wasn't there -- I believe
it was two or three minutes.
Q. I thought you said you ordered a
beer.
A. I did. I probably just left it
sitting there.
Q. All right. Did you order
anything else besides a beer?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And these individuals were there
when you left?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You walked out, and
when you walked out on Main Street, did you
go north or south to go get your Mustang?
A. I think I -- I think I went
north, the same way I came in.
Q. Okay. Did you go back and get
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1987
the Mustang?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And where did you park it
when you came back?
A. I parked it, I would estimate,
about 15 or 20 feet from Jim's Grill,
probably in front of the front door. I know
I didn't park right in front of the -- right
in front of the place.
Q. Now, was it facing north or
south on Main?
A. It was facing north.
Q. And after you parked the car
what did you do then?
A. Well, I went back in Jim's
Grill.
Q. Okay. And who did you see in
there then?
A. Well, Raul was in there at that
--
Q. He was in there?
A. Yes, he was in there.
Q. Where was he?
A. Well, he was up at the bar
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1988
section.
Q. In the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. Sitting at the bar?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he -- how was he
dressed? Do you remember how he was dressed?
A. Well, he had a dark suit on. I
don't know if it was a suit, but -- and he
had a shirt on, and he didn't have no tie on,
and that's about it.
Q. Okay. When you entered Jim's
Grill, did you, again, go up to the bar and
have a seat?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you order anything?
A. I may have ordered a beer. I'm
not 100 percent certain.
Q. Who waited on you that time?
A. Well, it would have been the --
well, it would have been the young waitress,
but it's my recollection that when I went in
one time, she was white, and when I went in
the next time, she was black. But I don't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1989
know which sequence --
Q. Did you ever see any male
employees of that grill either time you were
in there, anyone?
A. No, I really wasn't in there
very -- long enough to pay much -- I usually
don't pay too much attention to people when I
go into bars anyway, I mean unless there is
some reason to pay attention to them. So I
wouldn't have --
Q. I thought you told me earlier
you had been to some place -- an ice cream
place, and you noticed that the girl didn't
seem to know how to operate the cash
register.
A. Yes.
Q. So you did notice sometimes --
A. Well, I was interested in the
cash register because I was -- well, I just
-- you know, when you are robbing --
Q. But you don't recall seeing if
there was men or women in the grill this
time?
A. No. I don't recall how many was
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1990
in there or anything of that nature. I
wasn't -- I was just interested in him, and
that was it. I was interested in getting in
and getting out.
Q. All right. What did he tell you
when you entered the grill?
A. Well, I can't recall all the
conversation, but he seemed to be interested
in the Mustang, and subsequently --
Q. What did he tell you that made
you think he was interested in the Mustang?
A. He asked me if I had it, and so
I said, yes. And when we went out the door,
I said, you know, there it is. It's parked
there.
Q. Had he ever driven the Mustang
before?
A. Had he?
Q. Yes, sir. Up to this point had
he ever driven it any time since you had had
it?
A. If he had, I hadn't -- I didn't
know about it.
Q. Okay. I mean, what was his
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1991
interest in the Mustang? Why was he
interested in that as far as you could tell?
A. Well, he wanted to know if I had
it, you know, if I had brought it with me.
Q. Well, I mean wouldn't he have
known that because you had been driving it?
How did he think you would have gotten there
without the Mustang? I mean didn't he buy
the Mustang or give you the money to buy it
so you could drive it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you not find it
strange that he asked you -- inquired about
the Mustang all of a sudden as to where it
was and whether or not you had it?
A. Well, I didn't -- I didn't
consider it strange since he paid for it. Of
course, I had some equity in it because I
sold the Plymouth. I considered I had equity
in it, but it's not strange to me at all if
he wanted to possibly use it or something.
Q. All right. But he had never
driven it before that as far as you know?
A. He had never been in it?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1992
Q. He had never driven it before
that?
A. He had a set of keys, but if he
did, I didn't know about it.
Q. Okay. Other than asking you
about the Mustang, what else did he ask you
or mention to you?
A. Well, he wanted me to rent a
room upstairs at the rooming house over Jim's
Grill.
Q. Did you notice there was a
rooming house up there when you drove up to
Jim's Grill in the Mustang or when you came
there the first time?
A. I don't believe I did. No, I
don't think so.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, let me ask you
something. Why had you checked out of the
New Rebel Motel? What was the reason for
checking out there when you checked out?
A. You mean the next day at twelve
o'clock?
Q. The day you checked out, yes,
sir.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1993
A. Well, I was going to have a
meeting with Raul, and I had until three
o'clock, and I had to get out of there a
certain time, so I checked out.
Q. But how did you know where you
were going to stay that night?
A. Well, I really didn't know where
I was going to stay, but, you know, it was no
problem finding some place to stay.
Q. Did he tell you to check out of
the motel or was that just your idea?
A. Well, no, he didn't tell me to
check out, but he told me to meet him there.
And as I mentioned, I had to check out by a
certain hour.
Q. Did you think you would be
leaving Memphis that day?
A. I had no idea at that time.
Q. You had all your belongings with
-- what did I leave there?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I didn't leave anything there.
I took -- yes, I took all of my -- I thought
you was talking about my belongings from
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1994
Atlanta.
Q. I'm talking about all the things
you brought to Memphis with you.
A. No. Everything -- when I left
the New Rebel, took everything out of it I
had and, you know, put them in the car.
Q. All right. Now, he told you to
rent a room up in the rooming house over
Jim's Grill?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did he give you some
money?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. All right. Did you proceed to
do that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. How did you know where to
go to the stairway to go to this rooming
house? Did he show you?
A. I don't know -- I don't think he
showed me. I think -- or he might have
pointed it out, but there is -- I know I was
right close by the stairway that led up
there, and he just -- he was the one that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1995
suggested I go up there. So he might have
pointed it out or something. He might have
been --
Q. Did he go up there with you?
A. Not at that time, no, I went up
alone.
Q. All right. Well, was he still
in Jim's Grill when you left?
A. I really don't know where he
went. After I left -- when I went up to the
rooming house and rented the room, he may
have went back to the grill or he may have
sat in the car. I don't know where he was.
Q. My question is, when you left
Jim's Grill, did he leave with you or had he
already left?
A. Yes. He -- we went out the door
at the same time.
Q. Which direction did he go on
Main Street when you went out?
A. Well, we both turned left and,
you know, walked over toward the car.
Q. Was the car parked north or
south of the front door of Jim's Grill?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1996
A. The car would have been south of
Jim's Grill, not too far south.
Q. And when you walked out of the
Jim's Grill to go up to the stairs, did you
go north or south on Main Street?
A. Well, when I came out, I went
south, and as I mentioned, toward the
Mustang.
Q. Okay.
A. And then when I went to the -- I
went upstairs to the rooming house, I'm not
certain just what location -- whether I went
three or four steps north or three or four
steps south, but it's right in that general
area.
Q. Okay. Did you have to enter
through a door to go to the stairs to go up
to the rooming house?
A. Yes, there was a door there.
Q. Okay. And you left the street
and went through the door up to the top of
the stairs, right?
A. It's my recollection that, yes,
I went to the stairs, and then I -- I think I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1997
turned right and went down a slight incline,
and I went up some more stairs, and the
office is there.
Q. And where was Raul during this
time?
A. Well, he was either in Jim's
Grill or in the car, just standing down there
somewhere.
Q. Okay.
A. I have no idea specifically
where he was at.
Q. And you reached the top of the
stairs at the location there, and what did
you -- who did you see or who did you talk
to?
A. Well, I talked to some lady
there. She was apparently the landlady, and
I just inquired -- made inquiry about a room,
and she told me she had two. She showed me
two rooms. One was a sleeping room, and one
was a room I think they cook in. And I told
her I just wanted a sleeping room. So she
said okay. She showed me -- but she showed
me both of them, and then when we got back to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1998
the office, I think I gave her 10 or $20, and
she gave me some change.
Q. Okay. What name did you use?
A. At that point -- I think I used
the name John Willard at that place.
Q. Had you ever used that alias
before?
A. I don't know. I possibly had
heard it before or something. I have some
recollection of hearing the name before, but
I'm not, certain. I probably did.
Q. Mr. Ray, what I find strange is
you used Eric Galt two nights before this,
and all of a sudden on the night Dr. King was
assassinated you use another alias. What was
the reason for that?
A. When I go in a motel, I always
use my -- the car I'm registered under
because the police check on these -- on these
-- you know, they drive by and check your
license plates and see if it matches up with
your room.
Anyway, whenever I go in a hotel
or a rooming house, I always use an alias
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1999
because, you know, the police don't --
they're not checking license plates.
Q. But you didn't use an alias down
in Birmingham when you stayed there?
A. Well, I was going to stay there
quite a while. I had my car parked down
there, and I was trying to get
identification.
Q. How long -- how did you know how
long you were going to be in this rooming
house in Memphis?
A. I didn't know. Raul, when he
met me up in the room, he said we might be
there two or three days, and he suggested I
bring my clothing up. But I had no idea how
long I was going to be there, but I didn't
think it would be over a couple of days.
Q. Had you ever known anyone by the
name of John Willard?
A. I may have heard that name
somewhere. Usually when I use an alias -- if
I have heard of someone or something,
sometimes I'll use the name. But I can't
recall just where the name originated from.
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Q. And also in Atlanta you were
there under the name of Eric Galt too,
weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you weren't in a motel there
where the police were checking your license,
were you?
A. No, no, I wasn't. I was
receiving criminal correspondence there too.
Q. The Mustang was still parked
downstairs some 15 or 20 feet away from the
front of the grill door, right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. About what time was
it that you went upstairs to get the room?
A. It's really difficult to
estimate that. I would say -- I know I was
late when I got there. It could have been
four o'clock or fifteen after four. It was
somewhere -- it was after 3:30 because I was
supposed to have been up there, I think, at
3:30. And then I had -- I think I was on
time the first time, and then how long it
took me to walk down there and pick up the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Mustang and drive back, that's probably how
late it was. I would guess it was somewhere
-- four -- maybe after four o'clock.
Q. You said you were supposed to
get there at 3:30?
A. I believe it was about 3:30. He
give me a -- 3:00 or 3:30. He gave me a time
to be up there.
Q. Had you driven very far south on
Main Street past Jim's Grill before parking
the Mustang, say a block or two?
A. Had I driven south?
Q. Yes, sir. You said you were
facing north, so you must have driven south
and turned around and parked on -- you're
saying you were parked on the same side as
Jim's Grill, weren't you?
A. Yes, but I think I believe I
came in on the south side. I may have -- I
may have come down on the north side and
turned around and come back and parked on the
-- the front of Jim's Grill or I may have
come in from the south side. But I don't --
I don't have no clear recollection of that at
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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all, but it seems to me like I came in from
the south.
Q. Do you remember passing a fire
station just a -- almost within sight of
Jim's Grill, just a short distance away?
A. I know the fire station you're
talking about, but I don't recall passing it,
no.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in
the room after you rented the room? After
you paid her for the room, how long did you
stay there before you left?
A. Well, I hadn't been up there
over three or four minutes, and then Raul
came up there. He --
Q. Now, you said -- I'm sorry. Go
ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off.
A. No. He entered the room. He
came up there.
Q. You said she showed you a
sleeping room and a cooking room, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And were they on the same side
of the building? Was one on the north side
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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and one on the south side -- I'm sorry --
east and west side?
A. I don't know just where they was
at, but they weren't close together. One of
them was on, I think, one side of the
building, and one side was the other.
Q. They weren't side by side?
A. No, they weren't.
Q. You had to walk in one direction
to go to one and one direction to the other,
right?
A. Yes, they were --
Q. All right. This room that you
paid her for, can you describe it for me,
what you -- what it looked like? What did it
have in it?
A. Well, there was a bed in it and
a dresser, and I think there was a chair, and
that's about all I recall.
Q. Okay. You didn't have any of
your personal belongings such as any clothing
or anything with you then?
A. Not at that time. Raul, he --
later he suggested I bring my clothing up
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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there, but when I first went up, no, I didn't
have anything.
Q. Okay. It was in your car?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it have a window?
A. Yes. I think there were a
couple of windows, yes.
Q. Did you look out the window to
see what the -- which direction they were
facing or what kind of a view you had?
A. I don't have any clear
recollection, but I know I always look out
the back window, you know, in case the police
run in, and I need an exit or something.
Q. You were on a second story
building?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What did you see in
looking out the window?
A. I don't have no recollection,
but I know I usually always check out, you
know, windows when I check into a place like
that.
Q. Well, let me ask you this: The
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window you were looking out, were you looking
in a generally east direction or west
direction?
A. Well, one of the windows would
have faced -- let's see -- south. If you are
going south, west is on your -- let me see.
Here is north and south.
For the record, I'm putting this
on a piece of paper trying to get it
straightened out.
When you are on the south --
well, it would have been facing east.
Q. Could you see the Lorraine
Motel?
A. I didn't have no recollection of
seeing it. You can see it from -- I have
seen -- I have subsequently seen diagrams of
the place. It would have been easy to see.
Q. Did you see any vegetation, such
as trees, immediately behind the place where
you were staying?
A. I don't have no recollection. I
was just looking at it for a quick exit. I
wasn't interested in, you know, any
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particular trees or whatever.
Q. Okay. Raul came on up and came
in your room and told you what?
A. Well, we just had a brief
conversation, and he said we might be a
couple of days or three, and he suggested I
bring my clothing up. And then I didn't want
to do that because of the type place it was.
It was a wino place, and they come in and
carry off your things of that nature. But
subsequently I did bring some articles up
there.
Q. What did you bring up there?
A. I brought a case up there,
overnight case, and some shaving --
Q. Talking about a piece of luggage
or a suitcase or something like that?
A. Yes. It was kind of a small, I
would say -- well, just a small -- about the
size of a large attache case.
Q. All right. Now, that was the
first time Raul had been up there after you
had checked -- after you had paid for the
room, right?
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A. Well, I don't know if he had
been there before I had or not.
Q. Since you had been --
A. But with me, yes, that was the
first time.
Q. Did he have this rifle with him?
A. I don't know if he did or not.
He didn't have it with him when he came into
the room.
Q. Okay. Did he have anything with
him? Did you see him with any kind of an
attache case or luggage or anything that you
saw?
A. Well, subsequently not -- at
that particular time I noticed he turned his
back on me once, and he raised his arm or
something, and, you know, I think he -- I
thought he had a small transistor radio in
his pocket, but other than that, he didn't
have anything.
Q. All right. Did he have on a
coat or just a shirt and pants?
A. He had on a coat and a shirt and
pants, I think.
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Q. Now, you had no idea at that
time what he wanted you to do, am I correct,
I mean why you were there or what he wanted
you to do?
A. Yes. I knew it was something
about displaying guns, and, you know --
Q. What made you think that?
A. Well, he generally referred to
that. He didn't make any specific -- but he
just generally --
Q. Well, what did he say to
generally refer to that? What words did he
use?
A. Well, he was going to meet gun
dealers in Memphis, and, you know, the -- he
was never specific about anything, and --
Q. Who was he going to make a gun
deal in Memphis with?
A. He didn't say anything about --
any names or anything of that nature.
Q. Okay. He came up and told you
he thought you should bring your personal
belongings up to the room, right?
A. Yes.
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Q. He said you might be there three
or four days?
A. Yes, two or three days.
Q. Did he stay in the room while
you had gone down and got those things?
A. I don't believe I got them right
then. I think I may have got them like -- I
may have got them then, but I think I got
them the next time. He had me run an errand
at that time, and --
Q. Where did he have you go and run
an errand?
A. Well, that's when he wanted me
to purchase the pair of binoculars with
infrared attachments on them, and he gave me
general directions to a sporting goods store
where I could get them at.
Q. Okay. How much money did you
have on you then, Mr. Ray, roughly?
A. Well, I had --
Q. He had given you $700 to buy
this gun a few days earlier. You spent part
of it for the gun.
A. I don't know. I had 15 or
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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$1,600, I guess, altogether.
Q. How can you account for that
because you said you were running low on
money before he gave you this $700.
A. Well, I used to tell him I was
running low on money, but I wasn't -- I don't
think I have testified here I was running low
on money. I don't know what you would
consider low, but --
Q. I'm just using your words. You
said you had asked him for money, and he gave
you $700 when he told you to purchase this --
A. No. I didn't ask him for no
money. He just volunteered that. I asked
him for some money in -- excuse me -- in New
Orleans, but I didn't ask him for any money
when I purchased the rifle.
Q. How did you come up with 16 or
$1,700? Where did you get that money from?
Was that another robbery?
A. No. That's money he gave me,
and I saved it. And I hadn't been robbing --
I hadn't been committing any robberies at
that time.
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Q. Well, Mr. Ray, I'm having
trouble with some things. You asked him for
the money in New Orleans. You had left there
and had gone to Birmingham, on to Atlanta,
back to Birmingham, then to all these other
stops you had made, and he only gave you
$700. And I'm having trouble understanding
how you had this much money on you.
A. Well, that's the way I have got
it figured out based on what he's given me
altogether, and what I worked for and what I
escaped with. The reason I come up with the
money --
Q. You had escaped months before.
A. Yes. But I'm talking about --
I'm trying to -- you know, all the money I'm
accumulating all the time I was out there,
and I don't recall just how much money. The
way I calculate my money is how much I was
arrested with and how much I had here and how
much I spent. I don't -- you know, I wasn't
counting my money all the time, but I knew
generally what I had. Of course, the record
supports how much I spent.
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Q. But you think you had 15 or
$1,600 when you arrived in Memphis?
A. I believe after he gave me this
-- the $700, think I had 15 or $1,600.
Q. All right. Including that?
A. Well, minus what was used to
purchase the rifle with.
Q. In other words, when he gave you
$700 after you purchased the rifle, you had
15 or 1,600 left; is that correct?
A. Yes, I -- yes, I'm certain of
that.
Q. All right. Of course, you had
used some of the money for motels and food
and gasoline along the way, right?
A. Well, I wouldn't have used too
much on that. I mean after -- I wouldn't use
70 or $80 for the motels and the gasoline.
Q. Okay. All right. He told you
then -- now, he came up to your room, and he
wanted you to run an errand, and what was the
purpose of that?
A. That was to check on the
infrared attachments on the binoculars.
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Q. Okay. Were you familiar with
infrared?
A. No. I had heard of them, but I
hadn't -- I wasn't familiar with them at all.
Q. All right. And do you know --
did you know what -- in other words, what
would people use infrared for?
A. I believe they use them to see
in the night.
Q. And did he tell you where to go
get some infrared binoculars?
A. Well, he gave me directions
where I could check on them at this sporting
goods store, which was the binoculars or
whatever it was. He gave me directions down
the street. It was on the right-hand side of
the street going north on Main Street, and I
went in that general direction, and I
couldn't find it. I apparently didn't go
down far enough. So I went back and
explained to him I couldn't locate the place,
and he gave me more specific directions.
Q. Okay. Did you find it?
A. The second time, yes, I found
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it.
Q. Now, what time are we talking
about now roughly? You said you were
supposed to meet him at 3:30 and you were
late. So we're looking at, what, 4:30 or
5:00 o'clock in the afternoon on --
A. Yes. I would say a quarter --
maybe a quarter til five or somewhere like
that, yes.
Q. On April 4, 1968?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you wandered down
Main Street to look for this place called,
which we know is York Arms, right?
A. Yes, that's it.
Q. And you didn't find it the first
time. You went -- did you go as much as two
or three blocks?
A. I think I had probably went
three or four blocks. I may have walked past
it, but I'm inclined to think I didn't go far
enough.
Q. Had he told you how much money
to spend for them?
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A. No, he didn't mention that.
Q. Okay. Then you couldn't find
it. You then went back to the rooming house?
A. Yes.
Q. And then he gave you more
directions, and then you went back again?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And, then you did go back
to York Arms and find some binoculars; am I
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And were they infrared?
A. No. The salesman told me I
would have to check with the Army Surplus to
get those.
Q. Okay. Did he tell you where
there was an Army Surplus located?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. There was one within a block or
two of there, wasn't it?
A. He didn't --
Q. He didn't tell you that?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. All right. You bought some
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binoculars, and were they in a case or
describe them for me.
A. Well, I can't describe them. I
think he just put them in a box, and they
weren't --
Q. Did he show them to you or did
you look through them and try to adjust them?
A. I think he handed them to me and
asked me if these were all right, and I
handed them back and said, Okay, and --
Q. Then you did what then?
A. Well, I just purchased them, and
I asked him some other question, but I can't
recall just exactly what that was.
Q. Do you know what you paid for
them?
A. It wasn't very much.
Q. Ten dollars, fifteen, forty,
fifty?
A. No. It was more than that. It
was $30, I would just guess, 30 or 35.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I went back to the rooming
house, and Raul, he was still up there. And
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I just told him that I couldn't get the
infrared attachment, and he would have to get
them at an Army facility. And I just threw
the binoculars down on the bed, and that was
it. And then we had a brief conversation. I
hadn't eaten since about, I guess, twelve or
one o'clock. So I --
Q. Now, we're looking at 5:00 p.m.
Or something like that now or 5:15 roughly,
aren't we?
A. Yes. We're coming in there,
yes.
Q. Okay. When you got back to the
room, Mr. Ray, what was Raul doing? Was he
drinking anything, eating anything, watching
-- just what was he doing that you recall?
A. He was just sitting or standing
around. I don't recall specifically what he
was doing. He wasn't doing anything unusual.
Q. Okay. You still hadn't seen any
rifle at that point?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Did he have a room up there or
do you know?
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A. I really don't know. I assumed
that -- well, I assumed he did, but I don't
know that for certain.
Q. All right. And how long did you
stay in the room when you went back out
there?
A. Not too long. I mentioned the
fact that, you know, I hadn't eaten since
twelve o'clock or somewhere around there.
Q. Okay. Now, we're looking at
around 5:00, 6:15 or something like that,
5;20, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how long would you
say you stayed in the room, five minutes,
ten, fifteen, twenty, what --
A. Yes. It wouldn't have been any
longer than five or ten minutes.
Q. Okay. And what did you tell him
you were going to do?
A. I told him I was going to have
some lunch.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes. I went to a place called
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the Chickasaw -- it was a drug store, and
they sold sandwiches. I didn't know the name
of this place. The policeman in the Memphis
Jail told me the name of it. I described it
to him, so I assume that's the same one. I
believe he said underneath the hotel on the
corner was the Chickasaw Bar or restaurant or
something.
Q. Now, did you go north or south
on Main Street when you left?
A. North.
Q. Did you walk or drive?
A. I walked.
Q. Was that a block or two, two or
three blocks or what?
A. From Jim's Grill? I don't know
how far this place is. I don't think it's
very far, a couple or three blocks.
Q. Okay. Now, you walked there and
purchased a sandwich?
A. I think I got some ice cream.
Q. Okay. Is this where you saw the
young lady who seemed to not know how to
operate the cash register?
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A. Yes. I was sitting right up at
the cash register, and the manager come up,
and he was telling her how to operate it.
And I was just generally looking at it to see
if it was -- about the money angle. I was
interested in the money.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in
there would you say?
A. I don't think I was in there --
maybe 10 minutes at the most.
Q. Okay. And what did you do after
that?
A. Well, I went back to the rooming
house up above Jim's Grill. Sometime during
this point I think sat in the Mustang, but
I'm not certain just when I sat in the
Mustang, whether it was that time or when I
left the next time, when I left the rooming
house the next time. But I know at one time
there I was sitting in the Mustang briefly,
and I was just sitting there thinking.
Q. Okay. Well, was -- did you go
back up to the room then?
A. Yes, I did.
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Q. And who was there?
A. Raul.
Q. And what did he tell you then?
A. Well, we just had another brief
conversation. He said he was going to meet
some dealers there that evening or night.
Q. There where?
A. Pardon?
Q. Where did he say he was going to
meet them?
A. He was going to meet them there
in the room.
Q. In the room you were in?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then what?
A. Well, he asked me if I would,
you know, go somewhere else until the meeting
was over, and then a couple or three hours
and go to a movie and wherever. And he asked
me to leave the car out front, you know,
leave the car there. So I left -- I left
there about --
Q. Now, what time are we talking
about now? We're down to about 5:20 when you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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-- 5:15 or 5:20 when you went to get the ice
cream. You had ten more minutes or so, which
would have made it around 5:30. Then you
walked back. Are we looking at, what, 5:30
or a quarter of 6:00?
A. It was somewhere around -- yes,
5:40 or a quarter til 6:00, somewhere around
that time.
Q. All right. You walked back up
to the room, and he told you he was going to
meet some people there for what purpose?
A. Well, he referred to the gun
transactions.
Q. But you hadn't seen the gun, had
you?
A. No, I hadn't seen it.
Q. You didn't, have it in your
possession?
A. No. I didn't look under the bed
or in the closet or anything. It could have
been in the other room, but I didn't see it.
The last I saw it was the New Rebel Motel.
Q. Okay. And what did he tell you
to do then?
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A. Well, he just asked me to go to
a movie or something and come back, you know,
in a couple of hours, and he wanted -- three
hours -- and he wanted to -- he was going to
have a meeting with these individuals.
Q. All right. Did you leave the
room?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And which way aid you go on Main
Street that time?
A. I crossed the street. Now, at
that time I may have sat in the Mustang for
five or ten minutes. I don't know, but as I
mentioned in previous testimony, at one time
I know I sat in the Mustang for a brief
period of time. I don't think it was ten
minutes.
Anyway, when I left there, when
I went to -- went to a -- regardless of
whether I sat in the Mustang, I went across
the street, and I went -- I walked about a
couple of blocks, I guess, and I went into a
-- I think it was a bar. And I think they
had chairs in there where you -- where you
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could sit down, tables and chairs.
Q. Uh-huh. Did you stay in there?
A. Yes. I stayed in there. I was
just sitting there thinking.
Q. Now, we're getting close to 6:00
p.m., very close?
A. We're fairly close to it, I
guess, yes.
Q. And you had -- it was a block or
two away?
A. I would say a couple of blocks,
yes.
Q. Okay. How long would you
estimate you stayed there, Mr. Ray?
A. Not really too long, maybe -- I
think I may have ordered a beer. I may have
ordered a sandwich and not ate it. I don't
know just what -- I was thinking about, you
know, what to do for two or three hours. And
at that time I recalled I had a flat tire
earlier in the morning.
Q. When you left this place, where
did you go then?
A. Well, I went back. I was going
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back to pick up the Mustang and get the tire
fixed and park back, you know, at the same
location that I was at.
Q. Okay. Well, did you go back and
get the Mustang?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Was it ever parked back
in front of Jim's Grill anymore?
A. Did I ever park it back in front
of Jim's Grill? No, no. I left Memphis.
Q. Well, let me ask you something.
How can you account for the fact that the
Mustang was parked right in front of Jim's
Grill, in front of the door, and there was
two cars parked bumper to bumper, one in
front and one in back? How can you account
for that? We have several witnesses that
said they saw it.
A. I believe you have different
witnesses testifying to different things.
Q. No, sir, I don't. Several
witnesses told this same thing, many of them.
They all saw it sitting right in front of
the door. Mr. Jowers drove up and parked
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right behind your car --
A. Not my Mustang.
Q. -- bumper to bumper. You were
in his parking place there.
A. Well, that's his testimony. Of
course, I have testified differently.
Q. Many others too.
A. Yes.
Q. Was it ever in front of the door
of the grill -- directly in front of the door
where there was another one parked behind it
and directly in front of it?
A. I don't believe it was ever in
front of the directly in front of the door,
no. This is my recollection. No, I didn't
you know, I didn't -- when I parked there, I
didn't have no intention of trying to
remember subsequently just where I parked at,
but I know it was very close to the grill.
Q. Okay. Okay. You walked back to
the Mustang. It was some 10 to 15 feet south
of the grill -- the front door of the grill,
is that your testimony, where you parked it
earlier?
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A. Yes, I believe it was.
Q. All right. Any cars parked in
front of it or behind it then that you
remember where you had trouble getting out?
A. I don't recall having had any
problem getting out.
Q. Okay. And when you left, you
traveled, what, north on Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how far did you go
before you turned off of Main Street?
A. I can't be certain. It could
have been three blocks or it could have been
five or six. But I did go several blocks up
the street, and I turned right, and I think
when I turned right, I went -- I didn't go
very far when I turned right, maybe just one
or two blocks at the most, and turned -- I
made another right turn.
Q. Okay. So you made a right turn
off of Main Street?
A. Yes.
Q. And how far did you go before
you turned again?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Not very far. It was either one
or two blocks, but it was not as far as --
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, just a short
distance would have been a pretty heavy
business district. Had you gotten up in that
area when you turned off?
A. I have no recollection of just
-- I really don't know-- have no strong
recollection of where I turned off right the
first time. I'm just estimating this.
Q. Okay. And what were you looking
for?
A. A service station.
Q. All right. Did you find a
service station?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. And did you stop there?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you stay there very
long?
A. No. I just asked him if he
could fix the tire, and the attendant said
that, you know, he was busy or it was a busy
time of day or something of that nature.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. And, we're looking at
what time?
A. Well, I guess around six
o'clock. I wasn't checking my watch, but I
based that on the reports.
Q. When you left the room, you had
all of your belongings there, your -- did you
have any clothing with you, any other
clothing with you besides what you had on?
A. Yes. I had it out in the car,
yes.
Q. I thought you said you had taken
it all up to the room?
A. No, I hadn't. I was concerned
about it being stolen. The only thing I took
to the room was an overnight case, I think it
was, and I think I took something to put on
the bed to sleep on.
Q. Okay. Did you take what we call
a bedspread up there with you?
A. Yes. I took -- I may have took
a bedspread or sheet up there. I'm not
certain just what -- I know I took something
up there to cover up the bed with.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Where did you get the bedspread?
A. I really don't know where it
came from.
Q. How long had you had it?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. Okay. When you were in the
rooming house either time you were up there,
did you see anyone else besides the lady that
you paid the money to? Did you see anyone
else that appeared to be walking around up
there or someone who was a resident of that
place?
A. No. I didn't see anyone all the
time I was up there.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, after you paid
her for the money to rent the room, did you
ever go into the bathroom?
A. I may have, but I don't have no
recollection of it.
Q. Where was the bathroom in
relation to the room that you rented?
A. Well, I subsequently discovered
that it was across -- across the hall and
further back down -- back down the hall.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. It was on the same side of the
building as your room?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Can you describe the
bathroom for me?
A. No, I can't.
Q. You don't remember what --
A. Well, I have seen pictures of
it. I can describe it now, yes.
Q. Did the bathroom have a window
in it?
A. Yes. The pictures I saw, it had
a bathtub in it, and it had windows in it and
a toilet bowl, and I believe that was it.
Q. Okay. Did you ever look out the
window in the bathroom?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you were in the bathroom,
was that the first time you were up there,
the second time you were up there, the third
time you were up there?
A. I don't know if I was in the
bathroom. I said I may have been in it, but
I don't have any kind of recollection of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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being in it.
Q. Let me ask you something. You
first paid her the rent for the room, and how
long were you there before Raul came up
roughly?
A. Not very long. Once I got back
-- I was in the room, I don't think it was
over five minutes at the most, probably more
like three or four.
Q. And that's when he suggested you
go get the binoculars; is that right?
A. Yes. There was also a -- a
suggestion I bring my clothing up there too.
Q. All right. Was that the first
time -- in other words, when he came up
first, is that when he suggested you bring
your clothing up, the first time he came up?
A. Yes. He mentioned that early on
when we first got there.
Q. Okay. So the first time you
were there some five minutes when Raul came
up, and he suggested you go get your personal
articles, whatever it might be, and bring it
up to the room; is that right?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes. He mentioned we might be
there two or three days during the
conversation.
Q. Did you tell him you had checked
in under the name of Willard -- used the name
Willard?
A. No. We had had a conversation
before about what -- my name. He wanted me
-- he suggested I check in under the name of
Galt when we -- when I met him at the New
Rebel Motel. And I told him I didn't want to
do that. I thought it would be a mistake if
there was going to be guns around there. So
--
Q. But you did do that, didn't you?
A. Pardon?
Q. You did do that, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. In the New Rebel Motel, you
didn't check in under the name of Galt?
A. Yes, I did there, but when we
was talking about renting a room at the --
subsequently at Jim's Grill or something, it
was some conversation about renting a room
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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there. But I don't think there was any -- it
was a -- I can't recall just exactly what it
was, but there was some -- somewhere I got
some recollection about using my name for
renting rooms. And so I just used the name
Willard.
Q. Okay. You, were there some five
minutes when he came up and suggested you go
get your personal articles out of your car.
You did that; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. You were back up there, and how
--
A. I don't know when I got the
articles. I got them sometime during that
first -- one of them trips. I brought the
overnight case up there and a sheet or a
bedspread.
Q. Had you brought it up there
before you purchased the binoculars and
brought those up there?
A. I really don't know, but I know
I brought them up there. But I don't know
just when I brought them up there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. All right. About what time did
you go get the room roughly? You were
supposed to meet him at 3:30, and you were a
little late. What time -- would it have been
4:00 o'clock, 4:30?
A. When I rented the room? Yes, I
think it would have been -- it's really just
hard to say. I think it would have been
somewhere between 4:00 and 4:30, in that
general area because I know I was late when I
got up there. It wasn't no 3:00 or 3:30.
Q. Okay. All right. You had got
in the Mustang and left and gone to look for
a service station. What happened then?
A. Well, as I mentioned, the
attendant at the service station I stopped
at, he said that it was either a busy time of
day or he couldn't get it right away. I
wanted to get it fixed right away. And then
I think it was another service station across
from it or across the street or maybe on the
same side of the street. One time I thought
maybe I would stop there, but I'm not -- I
can't swear to that. I really don't think I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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did.
Anyway, I left there, and after
-- I couldn't get the tire fixed, and I kept
on going south, and then turned right, which
would have brought me onto Main Street. And
then when I got to Main Street, I looked --
Q. Were you going north or south on
Main Street?
A. Pardon?
Q. Were you going north or south on
Main Street?
A. I wasn't on Main Street then.
Q. I thought you said you got on
Main Street.
A. I was going to get on -- try to
get on Main Street.
Q. Okay.
A. I don't know what the street was
I was going south on, but I turned right in
order to get on Main Street because I had
been -- I had made the square then. When I
got to Main Street, I looked right, and there
appeared to be some policemen there or people
running around down there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Were you going north or south on
Main then?
A. I wasn't going south. I was
coming to the intersection. I was going
west.
Q. You were not on Main Street?
A. No, I wasn't on Main Street at
that time.
Q. Okay.
A. I was right at the intersection.
Q. All right.
A. It appeared to be this policeman
or someone running around down there, and
there was also -- I saw a squad car down
there. He was parked either at the
intersection or near the intersection. It
looked like he was blocking off the street to
me. So instead of turning right and going
back in front of Jim's Grill, I turned left
in the direction out of town.
Q. Okay. Where did you go from
there?
A. Well, I drove through -- the
neighborhood I drove through looked like it
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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was kind of a -- well, it was a run down
neighborhood. It was a black neighborhood,
and I drove kind of slow through there. And
finally I got on one of the main streets. I
think was veering off to the left where I
could, you know, get on one of the main
streets. And then when I got on one of the
main streets, I just kept driving slow.
And somewhere -- it was my
intentions -- I was going -- I had Raul's
phone number, and I was going to talk to his
intermediary and ask him what, if anything,
was going on there. So I didn't want to room
at a place where, you know, the police just
raided or something. So anyway, after --
Q. Where was his intermediary
supposed to be?
A. I don't know his name.
Q. Where was he supposed -- you
don't know where was it in the same area code
as Memphis or a different area?
A. No, it was New Orleans.
Q. Okay. And what time are we
talking about here roughly?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Well, it was -- I imagine it
would be a little after six o'clock.
Q. How did you try to call him?
A. I didn't call him.
Q. You did not call him?
A. No. I was going -- I intended
to call him, but on the way out of town, I
think I was -- I got to -- about 10 or 15
minutes, there was a report on the radio that
Martin Luther King had been shot. And then
wasn't paying much attention to that, but
subsequently I -- there was another report,
and they said they was looking for a white
man in a white Mustang and --
Q. Why did you think that might be
you?
A. Well, I was a white man in a
white Mustang, and, you know, I was driving a
-- there is not too many, you know, white
man in a white Mustang driving around town.
So --
Q. How do you account for that, Mr.
Ray?
A. How do I account for it?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. That there are not many white
men driving white Mustangs?
A. Well, I assume there is not many
white Mustangs around.
Q. What makes you think that?
A. Well, that would be involved in
crimes. Of course, they wouldn't. Have had
to have been. The only thing is the car fit
my description. I would assume -- I would
have had to assume that they would probably
have been looking for me.
Q. You know there was a report that
there were two white Mustangs parked out
there that day, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see another white
Mustang besides yours?
A. I don't have any -- I don't have
any recollection of that, no. I seen that --
there was several white cars parked along
there, that's the only recollection I have,
in that general area there on the other side
of the street.
Q. Did you call this number that
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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you had for Raul?
A. No. After I -- after I got the
second report about the white man in the
white Mustang, then I decided, you know, not
to contact him. Instead of -- I think I --
by that time I was probably in Mississippi.
So the first opportunity I had I turned left
and got on the -- got on another highway
going towards Birmingham.
Q. Okay. So you intended to leave?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you contact Raul
then any time that day or the next day?
A. No. I never had any more
contacts with anyone after that, with him or
anyone else.
Q. Well, why did you not contact
Raul because you had left your personal
belongings back there? You knew he had the
gun that you had purchased back there. I
mean why did you not contact him?
A. I could contact his
intermediary, but I certainly wouldn't want
to contact him if someone has been murdered
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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or a major crime had taken place. I just
assumed I had been had or something.
Q. Well, you had no reason to
contact him several months before that.
A. Well, there hadn't been any
serious crimes taken place where I was a
suspect.
Q. But what made you think you
would be involved in this, Mr. Ray, if you
hadn't actually done it?
A. What makes me think I would be
involved in it?
Q. Yes, sir. What made you think
that any police officer or any law
enforcement official would think you were
involved in this if you weren't actually
involved in it?
A. Well, they were stopping a white
man in a white Mustang.
Q. How did you know that?
A. Well, they had the report on the
radio, so they must have been stopping them.
Q. Did you know of anyone they
stopped in a white Mustang? Did you hear them
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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say, we stopped X number of people in a white
Mustang -- white men in white Mustangs?
A. No. But they had a report out
on the police radios to look for a white man
in a white Mustang as a suspect in the
shooting of some individual. You have to --
it was more to it than just the Martin Luther
King case. I had 20 years in the Missouri
prison, and didn't want to get, you know,
stopped for anything.
Q. Okay. Well, now, we're looking
at about six o'clock, and you left and you
entered the state of Mississippi you think?
A Yes.
Q. All right. And where did you go
from there?
A. Well, I turned left and went to
Birmingham, and on the way to Birmingham it
started raining slightly, and I threw
everything -- all the camera equipment --
Raul never did pick it up in Mexico. He
told me to just hold on to it. I threw all
the camera equipment in a ditch and wiped my
prints off the Mustang, and then I went on --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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and then I drove on into Atlanta.
Q. But, now, let me make sure I
understand something. Simply because you
heard that Dr. King had been shot and there
was a white man in a white Mustang they were
looking for, you assumed it was you?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right? You had no other
reason to --
A. Well, I assumed it was possible
-- a strong possibility that they were
looking for me just based on what I had heard
on the radio.
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, were they looking
for you because you actually did it?
A. No, I don't think they were.
Q. You wound up in Birmingham at
what time?
A. I wound up in Birmingham about
-- sometime during the night. I don't know
what time it was.
Q. Okay. That, same night or the
next day?
A. No. It would have been the same
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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night. I would say it was about one or two
o'clock.
Q. All right. Did you try to call
Raul or his intermediary then?
A. No. Once I left, I didn't have
no further contact with Raul or his
intermediary or anyone else after I left
Memphis.
Q. You never did try to contact
him?
A. No, I never did.
Q. Well, I mean is there some
reason for that because you had been
contacting him pretty regularly the last few
months before that.
A. Well, I had, but the situation
was different. Before that we hadn't had --
I hadn't -- you know, I hadn't been -- any
indications that there was any crimes
committed. And the radio report, you know,
they changed that altogether.
Q. I thought you had been sitting
here telling me yesterday and today you knew
he was into crime all the time. You knew he
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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was doing criminal activities or thought he
was.
A. Yeah, but we wasn't -- it wasn't
-- it was a different situation. If you
commit a crime and you get away with it more
or less, taking something across the border,
you don't just -- there is no reason then to
cut off all contacts with some individual.
However, if you are involved in something,
and the police are going to connect you with
some, type of serious crime, then you -- I
know that's the way my thinking is, get away
from them and --
Q. Well, did you think Raul had
committed this crime?
A. Well, I really didn't know. I
think it's a possibility of it. Someone --
of course, someone had been up there with
him. I didn't know.
Q. What made you think he committed
it?
A. Well, I didn't necessarily think
he committed it, but he was up there, and he
was interested in the rifle, and you had to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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come to that conclusion.
Q. Well, you knew Dr. King was in
Memphis and knew where he was staying, didn't
you?
A. I didn't know anything about Dr.
King, no.
Q. All right. You -- how long did
you stay in Birmingham?
A. I just went -- I just drove
through there.
Q. All right. And where did you go
from there?
A. I went to Atlanta.
Q. And how long did you stay in
Atlanta?
A. Well, I arrived there, I would
say, in -- I would say it was daylight, seven
or eight o'clock, and stayed there about-- I
caught a bus out of Atlanta about four
o'clock. So I stayed there from about eight
o'clock until four o'clock.
Q. All right. And where did you go
on the bus ride?
A. I went to, I believe it was,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm not certain.
Q. Did you Stay all night there or
did you leave there and go on somewhere else?
A. No. I think we got there about
two or three o'clock in the morning, and it
was a layover there. And from -- and then
from there I went to Detroit on the bus.
Q. Okay. Where had you left the
Mustang?
A. I left it in Atlanta.
Q. Where in Atlanta?
A. I left it in a private parking
lot.
Q. At that time, Mr. Ray, when you
left the Mustang, did you think you were a
suspect in this assassination?
A. Well, I thought it was a
possibility of it, yes.
Q. Other than the fact you had a --
you were a white man in a white Mustang, what
else led you to think that?
A. Well, just our whole actions
before that. We had been involved in
criminal activities and drug smuggling
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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apparently, and then he asked me to purchase
the rifle. And I just more or less had to
assume based on my situation at the time, you
know, the police were after me on other
charges, that I could very well have been
involved indirectly in the Martin Luther King
murder.
Q. Well, were you involved
indirectly?
A. Indirectly?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I probably was, yes.
Q. To what extent?
A. Well, I was hauling Raul around
the country and doing things for him. I
didn't have any was involved indirectly, but
I didn't necessarily know what he was doing.
Q. Okay. Did he ever mention Dr.
King to you?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Did you ever see him with a
newspaper or reading anything about the
accounts of Dr. King's activities?
A. I never seen him reading any
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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newspaper.
Q. Okay.
A. The only time he read a
newspaper or anything was when we -- when we
was, I think, looking for the Aeromarine
Supply when we was trying to purchase the
rifle.
Q. But let me ask you something.
You said you hadn't listened to the news, you
told me earlier, because you didn't know
anything Dr. King's accounts. Why were you
listening to the news on this particular
night after the assassination? You happened
to be listening to it?
A. I always leave the radio on when
I'm driving because it's kind of boring.
Q. But you took note of the news
this night?
A. Yes.
Q. You hadn't taken the news of any
of the events before that, but you did this
night?
A. Yes.
Q. That's a true statement?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Well, I don't know what you're
suggesting. I turned the radio on. Whatever
comes on the radio, that's what I listen to.
Q. I asked you earlier if you had
seen newspapers. We were having tremendous
riots in Memphis. People had been killed.
Dr. King was there, and you said you didn't
know a thing about any of this, and now all
of a sudden after he's assassinated, within
ten minutes, you know he's been assassinated?
A. Well, it was on the radio, and,
of course, there was riots all over the
United States at that time.
Q. Yes, sir. That was on the radio
and tv and the newspaper, the riots too, all
the headlines.
A. Yeah. But if I would have been
just driving down the street and something
about Martin Luther King or anyone else, I
wouldn't have thought anything about it, but
they was talking about a white man in a white
Mustang, and I was kind of hyped up anyway
because I saw the police in that general
area, so naturally I took notice of it.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, the police were
in that general area when you got there
because there were plenty of police officers
at the fire station no more than a block or
so away, almost within sight of it. You
didn't see that?
A. Did I see them?
Q. Yes, sir. There were plenty of
them there when you got there if you got
there when you say you did.
A. Well, when are you talking
about? When I first went there before --
Q. When you first went there and
moved the Mustang and brought it up in front
of Jim's Grill where you said you parked it
some 15 or 20 feet away. Did you see plenty
of police officers within a block there?
A. No. I don't have no
recollection, and I don't have any
recollection of them seeing me there.
Q. Well, you're bound to have
driven north on Main Street at some point if
you parked on the right side facing north
next to Jim's Grill, and it was just south of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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this where the fire station was located.
A. It's my understanding all these
police were called off a couple of hours
before Dr. King was shot. So I think the
only police there was in the fire house just
based on records I have read.
Q. All right. You had traveled
through Indianapolis and onto, what, Canada?
A. From Detroit, yes, I went to
Canada.
Q. All right. And then how long
did you stay in Canada?
A. Well, I arrived there -- let's
see -- probably April 6th, and I stayed there
until -- well, I stayed there until I got a
passport, whatever date that was.
Q. Okay. How did you -- how did
you get a passport? What did you do to get a
passport this time?
A. Well, the first time I went to
Canada I called up the travel agency, and
they give -- they told me about -- I needed a
guarantor, someone who knew for me for two
years before I could get a passport and swear
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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who I was.
The second time I went up there,
instead of calling the travel agency by
telephone, I went down there personally, and
I talked to the travel agent.
Q. What name did you use? Who did
you tell them you were?
A. What name did I use then? Well,
I got a name out of a newspaper, Raymon
George Sneyd.
Q. Okay.
A. So I explained to the lady -- I
told her I was from a town in north Canada --
I can't think of the -- Sudbury. And I told
her I was a used car salesman from there, and
that -- I give her some type of story where I
was having trouble getting identification. I
wasn't from the Toronto area. And she
explained to me -- she said there was -- she
said you need a guarantor for two years who
will swear that they know you, and I told
her, you know, I didn't know anyone in the
Toronto area because I was from Sudbury. So
then she told me that --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Had you ever been in Toronto
before this?
A. Well, I went through there, I
believe it was, in 1959 on the way to
Montreal.
Q. Okay.
A. But she told me that there --
there was another clause in the passport law
that if you would sign a sworn affidavit
saying who you were representing yourself as,
you could get a passport.
Q. Well, what identification did
you have to prove that you were who you said
you were?
A. Well, at that time I don't
believe I had any identification. I just had
the guy's name. Subsequently I think I got
his birth certificate, but I wrote the
Registrar General's office and sent in $2. I
found out how to get the birth certificate.
Q. Okay.
A. But I never did need that
anyway. But anyway, I signed this, affidavit
saying I was so and so. But before I applied
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for it, I had three different names, and I
called up some of these individuals, this
list of three names, and I found out that
Raymon George Sneyd never had a passport, so
I assumed then his photograph wouldn't be on
record. So I applied -- I applied for the
passport in his name.
Q. And you did get it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You left then Toronto,
and where did you go?
A. Well, I bought a round trip
ticket to London, England.
Q. Okay. How much did you pay for
that?
A. I think about $350.
Q. How long had you been in Toronto
when you left?
A. Well, I had to wait for the
passport. I guess it was about sometime in
May.
Q. Okay. And you had been there
since April the 6th?
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. Did you get any more
money from any source?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, you told me in Memphis you
had 15 or $1,600?
A. That's about what I had, yes.
Q. All right. And you stayed there
from April until in May?
A. Yes.
Q. And where were you living?
A. Well, I was living at two
addresses. I was living on Ossington Avenue.
I checked in there first, and I told the
lady I worked -- let's see -- I told her I
worked days, I think it was. And then I
checked into another room on the street right
around there. It was a couple of blocks from
there. I don't recall the name. That was --
some Chinese lady owned it, and I told her I
worked nights so that way I would have a
reason to be --
Q. How much were you paying for
these rooms?
A. Not too much, 10 or $12.
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Q. Was it 10, 15, $20 a night?
A. Yes, a week.
Q. A week?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you working anywhere?
A. Was I working?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. Okay. Did you pull any
robberies?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Okay. About when did you leave
to go to London, May what?
A. I just can t remember those
dates. It was sometime in May, but I --
Q. The middle of May, first of May,
last of May roughly?
A. It was probably the 8th or l0th,
9th or l0th. I don't know.
Q. Okay. And you flew on what
airline?
A. The British -- BOA, I believe it
is.
Q. Had you ever been to London
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before?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. And you had one passport?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you -- when you
arrived in London, how long did you stay
there before you left?
A. Well, when I first arrived
there, I exchanged the ticket for a ticket to
Portugal.
Q. And what was the purpose for
that?
A. To go to Portugal?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, I was going to try to
catch a ship to some English speaking country
in Africa.
Q. Rhodesia?
A. No, not necessarily. Any -- the
first country I was going to try to go to was
Nigeria and Biafra. There is two countries
there, Nigeria, and Biafra is a province of
Nigeria.
Q. How long were you in London
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before you exchanged your ticket?
A. Before I exchanged the ticket?
Q Yes, sir.
A. Same day.
Q. Same day?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't stay in London then
overnight before you left or did you stay
overnight?
A. I don't believe I stayed
overnight. I think I left that night. I
think I arrived there in the morning and left
at night.
Q. And you flew on into Portugal?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. Ten or twelve days.
Q. Okay. And what did you do while
you were in Portugal?
A. Well, at that time I was getting
kind of low on money. I was going to try to
catch a ship. That's the cheapest fare. So I
--
Q. How much money did you have?
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A. I really don't know. It wasn't
too much by that time, a few hundred dollars,
but I just can't recall.
Q. Now, had you purchased a round
trip ticket from Toronto to London?
A. Yes.
Q. And you exchanged the ticket for
a ticket to Portugal?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have to pay anything to
do that?
A. I don't -- I really don't know
how much they cost me extra or I got
something back. I just don't recall it.
Q. When you were in Portugal, where
did you stay there?
A. The Hotel of Portugal.
Q. Did you see anyone there that
you knew?
A. No. I seen some individuals
that worked in the government, but didn't see
anyone there that I knew.
Q. And then after you left there,
where did you go?
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A. After I left Portugal?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, after I couldn't get out
of the country, I was having problems getting
a visa and all that, I went back to London.
Q. Mr. Ray, why did you pick
Portugal? I mean, of all countries, why did
you pick there to go from London?
A. How come I went to Portugal
initially?
Q. Yes, sir. I mean why did you
decide to go there instead of some other
country?
A. Well, it's a seaport, and, you
know, you can -- I assumed that -- I knew a
little bit about geography, and I assumed you
probably could catch a ship out of there. I
didn't have too much money. I tried to --
Q. You never tried to contact
Raul?
A. No. When I was in Portugal, the
only one I contacted-- I did contact some
Portuguese official in the Foreign Ministry
and asked him about, you know, going to
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Biafra or something. And he recommended some
private organization, and I checked with it.
But that's the only -- that's the only
contacts I had ever had in Portugal.
Q. Well, let me ask you something.
After you left Memphis to go to Birmingham to
Atlanta and on into Indianapolis and Detroit
and Toronto, what is the reason you didn't
contact, Raul again? He had been supporting
you for months, and why didn't you support --
why didn't you contact him again?
A. You mean after the Martin Luther
King homicide?
Q. Right. I mean had no reason to
think he was involved in it, did you?
A. Well, I had to suspect he -- he
was in the rooming house, and subsequently I
found out, you know, from reports -- I mean,
that would have been the last individual I
would contact. I mean I didn't know who he
was. He could have been a -- you know, he
could have tried to kill me or something. I
was concerned about, you know, surviving. I
wasn't concerned about, you know, contacting
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him or what he could do for me.
Q. Well, you had been doing all
these things for him previously, and he
hadn't tried to kill you. You even had a --
you even gave him a gun, and he didn't try to
kill you?
A. Yeah, but he wasn't involved in
no murder charge then either.
Q. But you didn't know what he had
been involved in. You didn't know who the
man was, did you?
A. Well, I assumed he was involved
in it because he was in the rooming house.
Q. But you didn't know his last
name, never knew where he was from, never
knew anything about him, did you?
A. No.
Q. He could have killed 10 people
for all you knew, couldn't he?
A. He could have, yes.
Q. And you weren't afraid of him
then, all these times you were in the rooms
with him, and you rode to Atlanta and
Birmingham with him, and you had got him a
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gun and all, and you weren't afraid of him
then, were you, Mr. Ray?
A. No, I wasn't. I wasn't
concerned with him then because I had no
reason to be, you know, afraid of him. I
have been connected with a lot of criminals.
I wasn't afraid of them, but you get one of
them where they're involved in a murder or
something like that, you have to be a little
cautious with them.
Q. Well, what made you think he
would -- if you called him on the telephone,
now, what made you think that would lead to
where you were? I mean you knew how to make
a telephone call without it being --
A. Well, what was the point --
there was no point in calling him on the
telephone unless I was going to meet him or
have him send some money or something.
Q. Well, you had had several
contacts before. You called him from Los
Angeles. You were calling him from other
cities. Over the several months you had
called him many times, hadn't you?
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A. Yeah, but I didn't have no
reason to call him after that. The only
reason I called him is asking for some money
or to have a meeting with him. I didn't --
certainly didn't want to have any meeting
with him.
Q. Well, you hadn't had any
hesitance in calling him before this, though,
asking for money, had you?
A. Yeah. Well, I was moving pretty
fast, you know, after I thought. The police
were after me, and I didn't -- I just didn't
have no interest in contacting him or anyone
else I knew. I didn't even contact my
brothers or no one.
Q. And the only reason you thought
the police were after you is because you were
a white man in a white Mustang when you left
Memphis? That's the only reason you --
A. Well, initially that's what I
thought, but I got to hear more newspaper
reports and things, and I --
Q. Well, what would newspapers and
reports -- I thought you didn't read the
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newspaper and didn't keep up with the news?
A. I bought a -- I buy -- I used to
buy a newspaper every morning and read it if
there was something interesting. I don't
remember everything I read in the newspaper.
Q. But that wasn't interesting when
you were in Mississippi at the Desoto Motel,
and you were going into Memphis, Tennessee
where we had had riots and people killed?
That wasn't interesting to you knowing you
were going right in there in the area?
A. That would not have been
interesting to --
Q. That wasn't interesting to you?
A. No.
Q. Okay. But this was interesting
after you left Memphis knowing that the only
reason they had to suspect you was that you
were a white man in a white Mustang. That
was the only reason, and you became
interested in the news then?
A. Well, that would have been a
personal interest. I mean you're talking
about riots. That doesn't interest me at
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all. I didn't care what the -- you know,
what the riots were doing.
Q. Then when you get back to London
the second time, you were arrested, weren't
you?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Ray, were you ever in behind
Jim's Grill at any time?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. You were never there?
A. No.
Q. All right. Did you ever see the
Lorraine Motel any time you were in Memphis
--
A. I don't have any --
Q. -- where you actually looked at
it?
A. I don't have any recollection of
ever seeing it. I may have seen it, but I
don't know.
Q. Have you ever actually seen --
I'm talking about with your eyes -- Dr.
Martin Luther King where you actually looked
at him in person?
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A. I have seen him on television.
Q. No, sir. Have you ever seen him
in person?
A. No.
Q. You have never --
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Okay. Have you ever identified
a photograph of someone that you thought was
Raul?
A. Yes, I did. In the late 19 --
late 1970's, yes.
Q. Was that the person?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. It was the person?
A. I was almost certain it was,
yes.
Q. Okay. What led you to think it
was the same person? I mean, was there
anything about him, any scars about him,
anything such as change of hair or same --
what led you to think he was the same person?
A. It was just the physical
characteristics of him, and he just looked
like him.
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Q. The photograph you saw, was it
of his whole body, waist up, just face or
what?
A. No. It was the -- it was his
face.
Q. Okay. Have you been shown
another photograph recently of some person
that you identified as being this individual?
A. I think we should reserve an
answer on that because we're checking into
things. This thing is --
Q. Well, Mr. Ray, I know all about
that. We're checking into it, but I'm just
asking you, is this the same photograph you
had seen earlier?
A. You mean the one they showed to
me recently?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, I think I better reserve
an answer on that until maybe -- well, not to
-- not to --
Q. Mr. Ray, I already know what
you're supposed to have said. So I mean you
can reserve it if you want to. I already
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know what you were supposed to have said.
A. Yeah. The point is --
MR. PEPPER: Listen to
what he's going to say now.
Q. I understand.
A. The point is that I keep records
of all this, you know, the time back, but
sometimes your records get mixed up. And you
send them to someone because -- so I want to
keep these as specific as I can when I start
testifying because one reason is I have
always had have a lot of problems with the
news media, and if you're wrong on a date or
a time or something like that -- I'm talking
about the dominate news media -- well,
they'll say, Well, Ray, he's lied about this,
he claims he was here at 4:00 o'clock, and he
wasn't. He was there at 4:30. And generally
these people have been very hostile, and they
just look upon someone like me as -- with by
background as more or less vermin. So I
don't want to give them any excuse this time
in this situation to, you know, make a big
issue out of a small matter. So I want to
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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get all the details straightened out before I
--
Q. Well, were you shown a
photograph of some person purporting to be
Raul within the past few days?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Other than the two times in
Jim's Grill -- that you have identified as
being in Jim's Grill, were you ever in there
any other time?
A. I thought maybe I was in there a
third time, but I probably wasn't. And I
just -- I think it was just twice.
Q. You had gotten a passport in
Toronto after you were there the last time,
which took you, what, one day to find out
what it took to get a passport?
A. Well, I went to Kennedy Travel
Agency, and the lady there, she explained it
to me, you know, the procedure to get -- to
obtain one.
Q. But you had contacted a travel
agency before that when you were there before
to try to get --
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A. Yeah. I made a mistake.
Instead of going directly to the travel
agency when I went to Canada the first time I
tried to make those -- get the information
all on the telephone, and consequently I
didn't get the information about this special
procedure where you sign a sworn affidavit
saying your -- you know, you're who you're
representing yourself as.
Q. Were you ever in Houston, Texas?
A. No. I don't believe I was, no.
Q. Did you have any reason to think
that Raul was ever in Houston, Texas?
A. Well, I know the people that's
been investigating Raul and Percy Foreman,
he's from Texas too -- but I don't know --
I'm not conversing with all these
investigations.
Q. Did Mr. Foreman tell you he knew
Raul?
A. No. He didn't -- he didn't say
anything about whether he knew Raul. He
mentioned -- the closest he ever come to
Raul, there was a picture in, I think it was
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Life Magazine, and three bums were arrested
on the Kennedy assassination, and he wanted
to know if the Prosecution would arrest him
and bring him to Memphis, would I identify
him as Raul. And I said no because the
individual in the picture was -- he had some
resemblance toward Raul, but it wasn't
Raul. But other than that, he never
mentioned -- that was the last time he ever
mentioned anyone named Raul.
Q. Before today -- before yesterday
have you ever seen Mr. Jowers face-to-face?
A. No, I haven't. I don't have no
recollection of ever seeing him.
Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge
of any involvement he had in the
assassination of Dr. King?
A. Do I have any knowledge? Not
direct, just what I have heard on -- you
know, through the news media.
Q. All right. As to the Prime Time
-- ABC Prime Time --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that's the only thing you
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know, what you saw on there?
A. Well, the lawyer discussed this
lawsuit with me and certain aspects of it,
but --
Q. Do you know of any witness that
says that he had any involvement in it?
A. Do I know of any witnesses?
Q. Do you know of any witnesses or
been told of any witnesses that says Mr.
Jowers had any involvement in this
assassination?
A. The only thing I know is what,
you know, I have read in the newspapers and
what the attorneys have -- they haven't --
the attorneys -- well, they don't go into all
the details, and I let them handle it. I
have got enough to do without, you know,
staying briefed on all the details of this
case.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, you have been in
prison now for 26 years?
A. Yes.
Q. Twenty- six years ago Friday; is
that right?
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A. Well, I can't --
Q. Well, actually you pled guilty?
A. Yes, 1969.
Q. Twenty-six years of your life?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Ray, under oath, did you
assassinate Dr. Martin Luther King?
A. Did I?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you ever shoot at him?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who did?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you write that book?
A. Yes. I wrote it, but I'm not
responsible for everything in it.
Q. Well, who actually did the --
actually put it together?
A. Well, I'll try to explain it
from the beginning. Initially this book was
written by -- published by one Tupper
Saussy."
MR. BLEDSOE: Leaving off on
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page 285, line 13, going to page 292, line
14.
THE COURT: Well, let's break
for lunch here at this point.
(Lunch recess.)
THE COURT: Are we ready for the
jury?
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: All right. Are you
ready?
(The deposition of James Earl
Ray was continued to be read to the jury with
the excerpts noted as follows.)
MR. BLEDSOE: 292, line 14.
This is on page 296, line 6.
"Q. Okay. Did you ever know a Frank
Liberto, Mr. Ray?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Have you ever heard that name called?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. When did you hear it called?
A. I don't know the first time. I think
there was something about it in the -- there
was a Congressional committee investigating
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the Martin Luther King case in 1966-1977,
1978. I think then they referred to Frank
Liberto.
Then I believe -- if that's the
Memphis produce person you are talking about,
I have heard it from some other source, but I
can't recall just what all the sources I have
heard it from.
Q. You have never heard that name called
before sometime later on? You never --
A. I think the first time I heard it was
1977 or 1978.
Q. Were you ever at the L & L & L
Produce Company in Memphis at any time? Have
you ever been there?
A. No, no.
Q. Okay. Were you ever in a bar in
Memphis that you can remember except the bars
you mentioned earlier?
A. No. Just the ones on Main Street is
the only ones I can recall.
Q. Okay. Other than Raul, did you have
any contact with other persons in Memphis
when you were there?
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A. No, I didn't.
Q. And you have only been in Memphis one
time other than passing through this other
than the time you spoke to us about on April
4th, 1968 -- well, really April 3rd, 1968?
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Have you ever heard of a man by the
name of Joe Cacamecei?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you ever heard of a man named
Larry Mann, M A N N?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. All the time you were with Raul, Mr.
Ray, did you ever notice anything peculiar
about him? I had asked you before if he was
right-handed or left-handed, had any scars on
him. Did he like to -- did he smoke, chew
gum, anything about him that you can tell us
about?
A. No, I don't believe he smoked. I'm
not one hundred percent, but I never did -- I
don't have any recollection of seeing him
smoke. Mostly our conversation was just
business conversation. There was no social
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conversation. Generally I don't pay too much
attention to males anyway unless I'm
concerned about, you know, some type of
violence.
Q. When you were in New Orleans -- when
you left Los Angeles and drove to New
Orleans, did you meet Raul again? You met
with Raul in New Orleans back in December of
1967?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Okay. Where did you meet him?
A. The Le Bunny Lounge on Canal Street.
Q. Did you meet him more than once?
A. No, just that one time.
Q. Okay. How long were you in his
presence, then?
A. Not too long.
Q. I mean, five minutes?
A. Thirty minutes probably.
Q. Well, of course you had ridden with
him between New Orleans -- I mean Atlanta and
Birmingham. That took some hours, didn't it?
A. Well, we were on the freeway, but it
didn't take too long.
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Q. Well, I mean, it took you at least
two or three hours to drive from Atlanta to
Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. So you were with him all this time,
and you noticed nothing about the fact that
he smoked or chewed gum, any -- right-handed
or left-handed, any scars or anything about
him?
A. No, I don't believe -- I don't
believe he did chew -- I mean smoke.
Q. Okay. When you left the Mustang in
Atlanta, was it locked?
A. I believe it was, yes.
Q. Okay. According to the FBI report,
there were a lot of ashes in the ashtray and
the car was generally dirty. Do you know how
that came about?
A. No. There were cigarette butts in
the ashtray they claim, but I never did look
in the ashtray because I don't smoke, and
there wouldn't have been no point in me
checking it, but I don't know -- I don't know
how they got in there.
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Q. Okay. You have a lawsuit against
Mr. Jowers now, Mr. Ray, in a case pending in
Supreme Court. Is there any other type
litigation pending that you are involved in
at this time?
A. Litigation, yes, sir, there is.
Q. What else?
A. Well, I have one in -- I have two
lawsuits in the district court here in
Nashville, one of them is trying to get
ex-Governor Ed McWherter's criminal -- I'm
trying to get the file on him when he was
under investigation for criminal activities
several years ago.
Q. You are losing me.
A. Well, in 19 -- two or three years
ago, several of McWherter's aids were under
investigation for corruption, and two of them
committed suicide. And I have been trying to
get a copy of those records.
Q. How do you think that would affect
your case?
A. Well, McWherter, he has been very
hostile toward my interests, I guess would
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you call it, and I just want to see what his
motive is.
Q. You have two lawsuits pending in US
District Court here in Nashville?
A. Yes, that's one of the other one --
Q. Who is your lawyer on that case?
A. That is pro se.
Q. All right. What else?
A. The other one -- the other one is
a -- it's a Freedom of Information Act. Both
of them is Freedom of Information Act. The
other one is for some other government
records. I can't recall just exactly --
Q. Where is it pending? Is that in the
Federal Court also?
A. It is also in the district court here
in Nashville.
Q. Okay. You've got those two pending
and you've got the one in Memphis, and have
you got an appeal to the Supreme Court? What
else? Anything else?
A. I have got one in Washington DC for
the classified records of the Martin Luther
King case. I'm waiting on a decision on
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that.
Q. What court is that in?
A. It is in the United States District
Court for the District of Columbia.
Q. And it's pro se also?
A. Yes. And I have got one against the
Tennessee Board of Paroles.
Q. Okay. Where is it filed?
A. It is in the Circuit Court in
Nashville.
Q. Okay. And what's the nature of the
lawsuit?
A. Well, we contend when I had a parole
hearing -- not a parole --
Q. Last year?
A. Yes. Apparently the parole board
decided beforehand not to give me a parole.
They had a hearing beforehand which would
have been in violation of the Open Records
Act, the Sunshine Law, and I have an attorney
representing me on that named Andrew Hall in
Wartberg, Tennessee.
Q. Any other litigation pending other
than what we just talked about?
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A. I may have some. I can't think of
right now, but I think it is -- I believe
that's it.
Q. Okay. You had quite a number of
lawsuits you filed in the past for libel and
other -- haven't you?
A. Yes.
Mr. Garrison: Let me have just a
second here. A brief recess was taken.
Mr. Garrison: I don't have any further
questions. Mr. Pepper, I'm sorry?
Mr. Garrison: I don't have any further
questions.
Mr. Pepper: Okay. I have just a
few matters to go back over to amplify the
record, and then I will be through.
Cross-examination by Mr. Pepper.
Q. James, it is very difficult for you
to recall physical lay-outs as well as times
of any procedure twenty-six years
afterwards. Do you recall when you parked
the car by or around Jim's Grill facing north
on the afternoon of April 4th, do you recall
seeing a fire plug anywhere?
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A. I don't specifically recall seeing
one. I could have seen it.
Q. But you don't remember seeing a plug,
a fire plug, at this point anywhere? Would
you -- if there was a fire plug around where
you parked, would you have been concerned
about parking too closely to it or attracting
police attention, or would you have avoided
that?
A. Oh, yes, I wouldn't have parked
around no -- I wouldn't park around a fire
plug, no.
Q. Right. So if I advise you as a
matter of fact there was a fire plug south of
Jim's Grill --
A. Uh-huh.
Q. -- would you say then that you would
have endeavored to park away from that plug
so that you wouldn't have parked -- have been
illegally parked?
A. Yes. I wouldn't park around it. I
wouldn't have done anything to get, you know,
a traffic violation and possibly get
arrested, if that's what you mean.
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Q. And if you were parking away from
that -- away from that plugs, would you have
parked -- because you were talking about
being close to Jim's Grill -- would you have
parked north or south of that plug if the
plug was south of Jim's Grill?
A. And I had a choice?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, I suppose I would park north of
it if I had a choice unless it was right in
front of Jim's Grill.
Q. If there was a space there?
A. Yes, I would --
Q. But your testimony here is that you
don't recall -- you don't remember now --
your current recollection is that you don't
remember seeing that plug --
A. No, I don't.
Q. -- at this point that you would have
parked north of there? Directing you to the
very early part of your testimony, you
mentioned a fellow who was an FBI informant
named Jack Gawron.
A. Yes.
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Q. All right. With whom you had some
contact --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and did some time with your
brother. Do you know if Mr. Gawron today is
alive or dead?
A. He is dead.
Q. He has died?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you or anyone else associated
with you as far as you know have any further
communication with Mr. Gawron about this case
in recent years before he died?
A. No, not about the Martin Luther King
case, no, not about --
Q. Not about that?
A. No.
Q. Do you have any reason to believe
that Mr. Gawron had any communication or any
contact with the FBI at the time you knew him
and you were on the run?
A. No.
Q. The first I knew he was an informant
is when he testified against my brother on
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the bank robbery charges in 1971.
Q. But you don't know whether or not he
was in touch with the FBI at the time you saw
him when you were a fugitive from Jefferson
Penitentiary?
A. Well, I don't have any proof that he
was in contact with the FBI, but subsequently
he told them that I had robbed a bank in
Illinois, so he must been in contact with
them in 1968.
Q. All right. James, do you recall when
you went to pick up room in Cherpes' Boarding
House in Birmingham, how you learned about
that boarding house and how you got that room
there?
A. I either got it out of the newspaper
or drove around. I can't recall now. I
think I probably got it out of the newspaper,
but I'm not certain.
Q. Do you remember the exact name that
you used when -- that is on your -- on your
Alabama driver's license?
A. Eric S Gault -- Eric Starvo Gault.
Q. And I, for the record, want you to
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indicate, if you can, why did you use the
name -- the middle name Starvo at that point
in time?
A. I really don't know. It was just
another alias. I probably got -- I probably
heard about it or read about it or something.
Q. Did anyone tell you that you needed a
middle name -- that you needed a full middle
name for an Alabama driver's license?
A. No, but generally everyone has a
middle name, so I -- but I got the name Gault
before I ever thought about applying for an
Alabama driver's license.
Q. Did you come by that name Starvo
yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you ever recall using it on any
other occasion?
A. No, not that -- no. I believe that's
the only time I ever used that name.
Q. When you left Mexico and you were
going to California and going to Los Angeles,
was it your idea to go to Los Angeles or did
Raul at any time suggest that you go to Los
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Angeles?
A. When we was in Mexico?
Q. Yes.
A. No, he asked me where I was going at,
and I told him probably Los Angeles to try to
get out on a merchant seamanship or something
of that nature. I don't know just what I
told him. He said okay. He said, if you go
up there -- when you get up there, check the
post office general delivery when you --
Q. All right. Now, James, counsel for
Mr. Jowers has raised a question about
this -- about maps and markings on maps.
A. Yes.
Q. And I have seen a number of maps.
Would you just explain in your own words why
you have put markings on various maps that
you have had from time to time?
A. Well, usually when I go into a large
city, if I'm going to be there any length of
time or think I'm going to be there any
length of time, I'll put maps on -- certain
markings on them to get any bearings on where
downtown is and where I came in on and things
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of that nature. In other words, just get my
bearings -- get your bearings on the city and
where you are at.
Q. Okay. In Birmingham you mentioned
several times being at the Starlight --
A. Yes.
Q. -- Lounge and meeting Raul there.
Did you at any time go to the Gulas Lounge,
which is somewhat outside of Birmingham?
A. You said it is outside of
Birmingham?
Q. It is actually within the city
limits, but it is sort of -- it is a way from
the downtown area. It is called the Gulas
Lounge.
A. No, I don't think so. The only thing
I may have testified to before, I was in a
lounge -- it might have been that name. The
lounge I'm talking about is not too far from
the train station, so it couldn't have been
that. It wouldn't have been outside of town.
Q. During the period of your fugitivity,
which was from April 23rd, 1967, until you
fled to Canada, you said it was your general
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practice to buy a newspaper every day?
A. Yes.
Q. And what interested you -- what did
you read about in the newspaper? Why did you
buy that newspaper every day and did you read
it cover to cover? Was it there there
something in particular that you looked at?
What was your interest?
A. No. I would just go through and read
it in general, and I would read the sports
page, and other than that, it is just
something I kind of got in the habit of
doing, but it wasn't anything in there
specifically that I was, you know, looking
for.
Q. During the time you entered the
United States following your escape, which
would have been in late August, early
September, 1967, until Martin Luther King was
killed on April 4th, 1968, did you at any
time take a note of where Dr. King was in the
United States, what he was doing or where he
was speaking anything at all about his
movements?
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A. You mean from the time I escaped
until April the --
Q. From the time you came into the
United States -- I'm really talking about
that period of late August --
A. Oh, yes.
Q. -- until --
A. No, I didn't. The answer is no.
Q. And when you went to Atlanta in March
coming from Los Angeles, leaving Los Angeles
and coming to Atlanta, did you know for a
fact he was at the time -- whether or not he
was in Atlanta?
A. No. I didn't know anything about him
at that time, no.
Q. Did you have any idea why Raul
wanted you to go to Atlanta?
A. No. He didn't say. The only thing
he said -- once we got there, he said, you
know, we was going -- he wanted me to drive
him to Miami in three or four days, but I
don't know -- he didn't explain what that
deal was. So --
Q. So you didn't know why he wanted you
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to go to Miami?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't know why he wanted you
to go to Atlanta?
A. No.
Q. You have testified that and you have
said before that Raul seemed to have -- when
he stretched at one point he seemed to
have -- you saw in his back pocket as his
jacket raised up something that looked like a
transmitter radio when he was newspaper the
room. Could that have equally been a
walkie-talkie?
A. Well, subsequently I thought maybe
that's what it was, but I didn't know -- I
didn't pay that much attention to it.
Q. Okay. For the record, let's make it
clear. When you gave a description of what
the bathroom looked like, were you describing
the bathroom from your present recollection
of how you remembered seeing it or from the
photographs that you have observed subsequent
to the time?
A. No. It is the photographs. I've
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seen photographs of the bathroom and the -- I
think it was a palm print on it and -- the
one I've seen -- or a place where a palm
print was and a bathtub. Yes, I saw --
Q. Do you have any present recollection
of what -- of how that bathroom looked?
A. No, I don't.
Q. James, did you have -- did you at any
time during the -- all of the relevant period
here when you were wandering around the
United States and taking instructions from
Raul and doing various things from him and
for yourself when you were out of contact
with him, did you at any time have a hint or
any indication or a sense yourself that you
would be becoming involved in an
assassination conspiracy against Martin
Luther King?
A. No. It was just common crimes, as
far as I was concerned, smuggling and selling
guns and things of that nature.
Q. There was never any hint in your mind
or indication that you were involved in
any -- getting involved increasingly in the
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conspiracy to kill Dr. King?
A. No, there wasn't, no.
Q. When was the very first time that you
actually thought you might have been so
involved, however unknowingly or implicated
or set up?
A. That would have been sometime after I
heard the report that Martin Luther King had
been shot in Memphis. I can't remember just
exactly my thought process all the way, but
sometime not too long after that I assume
that I might have been put in the position
where I could, you know, get a murder charge
against me.
Q. Did you come to believe at some point
in time that Arthur William Bradford Huie,
whose name had been raised by counsel here,
was in fact relaying information to the FBI?
A. Yes. Well, he -- first he was
publishing all this information to the -- in
the magazine, which was the same thing as
furnishing it to the FBI, and also Percy
Foreman, he told me at one time that William
Bradford Huie could get information from the
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FBI in a few hours that would take him a
couple of weeks to.
I don't know why Foreman told me
this, because he was representing me, but
usually it is my experience you don't give
the police -- police don't give you
information without you giving them
information. So I assume that he was
cooperating with the FBI.
And subsequently I learned, too,
through some of these books he wrote -- and I
think one of them was Three Lives in
Mississippi -- that he was, you know, he
contacted -- he would -- he would work with
the authorities to -- in racial cases.
Q. Was William Bradford Huie ever the
promotor of an offer to you to admit guilt in
this crime in exchange for money and a
pardon?
A. Yes, he was. When the Congressional
committee was investigating the case -- now,
this was in 1977 or 1978. I think it was
1977 -- he contacted my brother, Jerry Ray,
and he said that -- this was the time that
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Ray Blanton was having some problems with the
authorities, Governor Ray Blanton of
Tennessee, and Huie told him on the phone
that if I would go in front of the committee
and admit to shooting Martin Luther King or
words to that effect, that he would give us
two hundred fifty thousand dollars and he
could get me a pardon from governor Blanton.
He mentioned the fact that -- I
think Jerry asked him -- my brother asked him
how he would do it, and he said, well,
Blanton is having problems of his own, and he
was going to work it out through some way
based on Blanton's problems. But -- so,
anyway, my brother went and told Mark Lane
about this. He was representing me at that
time.
So Mark Lane advised my brother to
go contact Huie again and asked him to say
the same thing on the phone. So Mark Lane
gave him a -- something you can tap the phone
with, some type of device you fit on the
phone. So Huie told him subsequently that
same thing, that he could give us -- he would
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give us two hundred and something thousand
dollars if we went in front of the committee
and took full responsibility for the Martin
Luther King murder.
And then after the transcript from
Martin Luther -- after he got the transcript
of the tape-recordings of this, Mark Lane
sent the tape-recording and the transcript to
the Select Committee investigating the Martin
Luther King case.
Q. Did a previous attorney of yours
named Jack Kershaw -- do you recall whether
Mr. Kershaw also communicated a similar offer
from Mr. Huie to you?
A. Yes. I can't remember the details,
but he made contact with William Bradford
Huie, and I just don't -- I don't have a
clear recollection of that. That would have
been more or less hearsay, but the one was --
he contacted my brother on the phone, and I
have actually heard the tape-recording of
it. And I have read the transcript of it.
Q. Now, in your description of Raul,
could you just amplify and only by giving us
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an approximate estimate of his age as you
recall him in 1967 or 1968?
A. Well, sometimes it is difficult to
give someone's age, but I just assumed he was
between thirty-five and forty.
Q. At that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Okay. I think that is all
I -- that's all I have. Mr. Garrison: Let
me just -- Dr. Pepper: Ask him another
question, too, in regard to some of these you
have asked him here.
Redirect examination by
Mr. Garrison.
Q. Mr. Ray, I'm having problems with
your -- some of your testimony. I'm going to
be honest with you. You had a map of
Atlanta, and you have just now testified to
Dr. Pepper today that you had a habit of
getting maps when you entered large cities.
Well, you entered Memphis I know for
sure, Birmingham I know for sure. You had
never been there before. Did you have a map
where you had any markings on those cities?
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A. Well, in Memphis I didn't think I was
going to be there very long, a day or so.
Q. But you said you really didn't know
how long you would be there? He told you you
would be there three or four days?
A. Well, after he told me, but I had
other things to do besides, you know, run out
and start looking for maps. I was running
errands for him, and, of course, you know, we
left there the same day -- I left there the
same day. So I didn't have no opportunity to
buy maps.
Q. Well, you were in Birmingham several
days and you get get a map there, either.
A. I possibly have a map of Birmingham.
I don't know what all maps are in my personal
property. There is a list of them, but
Birmingham is a -- you know, it is not really
a large town like Atlanta.
Q. Was a palm print found in the
bathroom at this rooming house of yours?
A. I understand there was. I think I
seen a picture of it.
Q. Can you account for that?
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A. Well, I think William Bradford Huie
claimed it was mine, but subsequently they
found out it belonged to a policeman.
Q. Okay.
Mr. Garrison: That's all I have."
MR. BLEDSOE: That's the end of
our deposition reading.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, we
have a document we'd like to have marked as
an exhibit.
(The above-mentioned document
was marked Exhibit 37.)
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, the
defendant rests.
THE COURT: All right. Do you
have any rebuttal evidence?
MR. PEPPER: Just very few
pieces of rebuttal evidence, Your Honor.
Your Honor, firstly, plaintiffs
would like to submit and have marked into
evidence three newspaper articles that were
published at the time:
One deals with the existence of a
second white Mustang. The other two deal
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with the presence of someone in the bushes.
In this article on 4/5/9 68, in the
Commercial Appeal, a journalist, Robert
Samsut, reports, "After the shot, Solomon
Jones -- who was Dr. King's chauffeur -- said
he saw a man with something white on his face
creep from a thicket across the street."
In an article published on the same
day in the Memphis Press Scimitar by Wayne --
attorney, then-journalist, Wayne Chastain,
Chastain quotes Solomon Jones as saying, "He
looked over his shoulder, and about
twenty-five feet away he saw a man jump out
of some bushes and run. He had something
white on his face."
If these may be marked collectively,
Your Honor.
(The above-mentioned documents
were marked as Collective Exhibit 38.)
MR. PEPPER: Then there are a
few very brief comments from a deposition
that plaintiffs would like to have read into
the record at this time as well. They are
strictly rebuttal evidence.
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If Your Honor please, we'd like
to -- I'd like to introduce a new member of
the defense team, Ms. Stacy Clinton, who
would just do a Q-and-A with me. We'll put
these in as quickly as we can.
THE COURT: All right. The
deposition of whom?
MR. PEPPER: This is a
deposition of woman called Betty Jean
Spates. We've tried for months and months to
contact her and tried to bring her to court.
It was taken on the 3rd of November, 1994.
THE COURT: Mr. Garrison, are
you familiar with this?
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, I
have the deposition here. If Dr. Pepper
wants to read it, I won't read any parts in.
I'll let the jury decide.
THE COURT: All right. Go
ahead.
MR. PEPPER: Let's turn firstly,
please, to page 11.
"Question: When you became employed
at Jim's Grill, did you work full-time like
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forty hours or two days a week? How would
you describe it, the best you recall?
Answer: All I know is I was there
every day.
Question: About what time would
you go to work, if you recall?
Answer: No certain times.
Sometimes I would go at four o'clock in the
morning and stay until closing.
Question: Okay. Okay.
Answer: Not straight through. I
would leave and come back.
Question: What time usually would
closing be? What time would you usually
close?
Answer: I guess around three
o'clock in the morning.
Question: So it was almost open
twenty-four hours a day?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Now, you mentioned that
you worked some other place.
Answer: Seabrook Wallpaper.
Question: Were you working there at
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the same time at these two jobs?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Did you go to work at
Seabrook's before Jim's Grill or after or
about the same time?
Answer: I don't remember.
Question: Where was Seabrook's?
Answer: 421 South Main.
Question: Where was it in relation
to Jim's Grill? Was it very close? Across
the street?
Answer: Yes, across the street.
Question: What did you do at
Seabrook's, Ms. Spates?
Answer: I was a shipping clerk.
Question: Would you have been a
full-time employee with them?
Answer: Yes, I guess so.
Question: When you worked at --
started working at Jim's grill, Ms. Spates,
did you wait on tables? Is that one of the
things did you?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Did Mr. Jowers sell
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beer?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Did you serve beer to
the customers?
Answer: No.
Question: You did not. Okay. Did
you operate the cash register?
Answer: Sometimes.
Question: Okay. Did you do any
cooking?
Answer: No.
Question: Okay. Did Mr. Jowers
stay in the restaurant most of the time or
was he in and out also?
Answer: He was in and out.
Question: Okay. How many days a
week would he stay open?
Answer: Seven.
Question: Seven days. All right.
Do you recall, Ms. Spates, about what month
in 1967 or what season, if it had been summer
or fall?
Answer: In the summer.
Question: In the summer of 1967,
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you worked continuously on up until sometime
in the future. Is that correct?
Answer: Yes."
MR. PEPPER: Let's move to page
41, down to line 19.
"Question: I want to be sure we
know what you do remember. This is a
quotation. I vividly recall that Loyd was
once again nowhere in sight inside the grill
at about six p.m. So again I went back into
the kitchen for him. Do you remember that
statement?
Answer: I just don't remember
these times."
MR. PEPPER: Reference here is
to an affidavit that she is being questioned
on.
"Question: Okay.
Answer: Yeah, I remember saying it.
Question: Okay. Question, in
quotation marks, while I remember hearing
what sounded like a firecracker going off,
and within seconds, Loyd came running through
the back door carrying another different
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rifle. Do you remember that statement?
Answer: Not exactly like that.
Question: Okay. Well, essentially
is that statement correct, what I just read
to you, the paragraph?
Answer: Would you read it again,
please?
Question: Question, quotation
marks, while there I remember hearing a sound
like a firecracker going off, and within
seconds, Loyd came running through the back
door carrying another different rifle.
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, quotation
marks, he was white as a ghost and very
excited and wearing black trousers, a white
shirt, and a black bowtie, as usual. The gun
he was carrying had a shorter barrel than the
first one, and the handle was a darker shade
of brown. Full stop. It also had a scope
and something screwed on to the end of the
barrel.
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, quotation
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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marks, he looked like a wild man. His hair
was all messed up, and he had obviously been
on his knees on the damp ground because the
knees of his trousers were wet and muddy. He
looked at me and saw me looking at him and
said words to the effect, you would never say
anything to hurt me, would you? And I said,
no, of course I wouldn't. Do you remember
that?
Answer: Yes."
MR. PEPPER: Move down to line
21.
"Question: Question, okay.
Quotation marks, only twice did he refer to
the incident, once as it happened and he saw
me watching him and then sometime later when
he said to me some words to the effect, you
would never say anything to hurt me, would
you? Do you remember that?
Answer: I don't even understand
what you just read.
Question: Let me say see if I can
get another version of it here. Okay.
Quotation marks, only twice did he refer to
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the incident, once as it happened and he saw
me watching him and then sometime later when
he again said to me words to the effect, you
would never say anything to hurt me, would
you?
Answer: Yes."
MR. PEPPER: Let's move on,
please, to page 46.
"Question: Question, again in
quotation marks, I finally told the details
of this story to Dr. William Pepper, the
attorney for James Earl Ray, in 1992 and was
going to testify at the HBO tele-trial of
James Earl Ray but did not testify because I
was too frightened. Is that true?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, speech marks,
recently I was interviewed by investigators
from the TBI -- the Tennessee Bureau of
Investigation -- who I understand have been
looking into Loyd Jowers' story at the
request of Shelby County Attorney General,
end of quotation marks. Is that true?
Answer: I really didn't understand
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that.
Question: Question, recently I was
interviewed by an investigators.
Answer: Yes, that's true.
Question: Question, quotation
marks, I recall that he did not ask me what I
knew about the killing of Dr. King or what I
saw but only asked me to answer yes or no to
various statements contained in Mr. Kenneth
Herman's affidavit of 25th January, 1994.
They also asked me if I had been offered
money for my actual story. I said no.
Answer: True.
Question: Question, Mr. Herman's
statement was basically correct as to what I
saw, and I told them so. Is that true?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, quotation
marks, I was therefore surprised to be shown
an article in the Tennessean newspaper on
Thursday, February 10th, 1994, which stated
that the Shelby County Attorney General said
three witnesses, including myself, who had
tied Jowers to the assassination now said
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nothing about Jowers' involvement, full
stop. Do you remember that? It says
Ms. Jowers, but, I'm sorry, Ms. Spates.
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, quotation
marks, I said no such thing to the TBI
investigators and resent any statement I
did. I will not retract the truthful account
of the events which I witnessed around 6 p.m.
on Thursday, April 4, 1968, which confirm
Mr. Jowers' involvement. Is that true?
Answer: True.
Question" -- this is being quoted
again -- "I confirmed that no one has paid or
offered to pay me any money for relating what
I saw. Based on everything I know, James
Earl Ray was not the person who shot Dr.
King. Other persons have tried to get me to
change my story, saying that if I did so, I
would benefit financially. I refused to do
so and will continue to refuse. I resent any
attempt by the Attorney General or his TBI
investigators to imply that I am telling lies
for money. The story I told is actually
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against my interest but nevertheless I tell
it because it is the truth, and I believe
that an innocent man is in prison. Do you
remember that statement?
Answer: That's true."
MR. PEPPER: Turn next, please,
to page 83, line 21. Redirect examination by
Mr. Garrison.
"Question, Ms. Spates, let me ask
you a couple of other things and I'll be
through. On the day before this occurred, do
you remember seeing any money in the
restaurant there or any place?
Answer: I don't know if -- yeah, I
remember seeing money.
Question: Where was the money?
Answer: It was in the stove in the
kitchen.
Question: Where was the -- tell us
where the stove was located in the kitchen.
Upon entering from the front door, would it
to be to your right or left?
Answer: The left.
Question: The stove would be to
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your left?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Question, when you saw
the money, Ms. Spates, did it appear to be a
lot of money or a very small amount? Would
you describe it for us?
Answer: I don't know the
denomination, but it was from the front of
the stove forward, but I don't know whether
it was all the way back lined up back there,
but it was a lot from the front.
Question: It was bills?
Answer: Yes.
Question: It wasn't coins?
Answer: No.
Question: It was bills, right.
Were they wrapped with something did it
appear, or was it all stacked up on top of
each other?
Answer: They were stacked very
neat, so I don't know.
Question: You couldn't tell the
denomination, like if they were dollar bills,
five, ten, fifteen, what they were?
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Answer: No.
Question: Was it a large stack of
bills?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Okay. Would it have
been say four inches, six inches, a foot?
What would be your best --
Asnwer: If this is the front of the
stove right here, it was all the way from
about the top of the stove.
Question: Was it packed up pretty
high, the money?
Answer: Yeah, from the bottom to
the top.
Question: Had you ever seen any
money before all the time you were there
before this?
Answer: Pardon?
Question: Had you ever seen any
money before this time that you noticed it?
Had you ever seen any money like that before
all the time you worked there?
Answer: No place."
MR. PEPPER: Move back, please, to
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page 21, line 24.
"Question: Ms. Spates, let me ask
you this: Did you and Mr. Jowers engage in a
sexual relationship during the time we're
speaking of here in 1967, 1968 and on into
the 1970's?
Answer: Yes.
Question: More than once?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Many times, you'd say?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Okay. And that would
have been at both 418 South Main and 990
Oakview is where this took place?
Answer: I'm not for sure about
Oakview.
Question: Okay. Would there have
been any other place other than 418 South
Main?
Answer: No.
Question: That would have been it
mostly?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Do you recall any other
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person ever being present when you and
Mr. Jowers engaged in any type of sexual
activity?
Answer: No."
MR. PEPPER: That's all, Your
Honor. Thank you.
MR. GARRISON: I'd like to read
some other portions.
THE COURT: Are you going to
read them yourself?
MR. GARRISON: Yes.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GARRISON: These are some
other questions that were asked of Ms. Spates
on this date when she was present giving her
testimony, beginning on page 5 with line 7.
This question was asked Ms. Spates:
"Ms. Spates, I'm Lewis Garrison, you
and I met I believe one time before this. Is
that correct?
Answer, yes.
Question: Okay. Ms. Spates, I
want to ask you some questions. If there is
anything that I ask you that you do not
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understand or you want me to speak louder, if
you will tell me, I'll be glad to do it so
I'll help you understand what I'm trying to
ask you. You are here where a subpoena was
served on you. Is that correct?
Answer: Yes.
Question: You understand the
subpoena is in effect a court order for you
to appear here and give your testimony to
what you know under oath. Do you understand
that.
Answer: Yes.
Question: The same as if you were
called upon to go into court in this case and
you were in a courtroom with the same oath as
would you take then. Do you understand that?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Ms. Spates, will you
tell us your full name.
Answer: Betty Spates."
Page 7, beginning with line 9.
"Question: Ms. Spates, if I'm not
mistaken, you and I met in my office back
several months ago. Is that correct? Do you
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remember that you came to any office one day?
Answer: One day, but I don't
remember when.
Question: That is the only time
you and I ever met before today, am I
correct?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Let me ask you so we
can -- of course, let me remind you that you
are under oath again. To get the record
clear, when you and I met before, we never
discussed any payment to you about any kind
of statement or any facts of this case or
anything about you would make any amount of
money?
Answer: No.
Question: In fact, I never
discussed with you any money amount, amount
of money, in this case that would you be paid
or promised or anything, have I?
Answer: No."
MR. GARRISON: Skipping over to
page 25, beginning with line 14.
"Question: Let me is you ask you
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something. Do you recall on that date or any
date before that date did Mr. Jowers ever
exhibit a weapon, gun, rifle, pistol or
anything like in your existence?
Answer: I can't say that -- what
now?
Question: On that day or any day
before that did Mr. Jowers ever exhibit or
show you a gun or did you see him with a gun,
pistol, rifle, anything?
Answer: Yes, I've seen him with a
gun.
Question: What kind of gun was it?
Answer: I've seen him with a
rifle. I've seen him with a pistol.
Question: Before this date of
April 4th you had seen him with one?
Answer: I really can't remember
that date. I do know I have seen him with
one since I've known him.
Question: You've seen him with a
rifle at some time since you've known him?
Answer: Yes.
Question: The rifle that you saw
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him with -- the rifles you saw him with, do
you remember did they have a scope on them
where you look in?
Answer: I don't remember.
Question: Ms. Spates, on the date
of April 4, 1968, do you recall any incidents
that day, that afternoon, in the area of the
range around six p.m. where you heard
something, a noise in the back of the grill?
Answer: I can't remember the time
or whether it was that date."
MR. GARRISON: Page 27, line 2.
"Question: What did that sound
like to you?
Answer: Kind of sounded like not a
loud backfire.
Question: Where did it appear to
come from?
Answer: I have no idea.
Question: Could you tell us where
you were in the grill when it happened when
you heard the noise?
Answer: In the kitchen.
Question: Do you recall was anyone
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with you?
Answer: No.
Question: You were by yourself?
Answer: Uh-huh.
Question: Where was Mr. Jowers?
Answer: I don't remember."
MR. GARRISON: Page 28,
line 4.
"Question: Do you remember,
Ms. Spates, did you see Mr. Jowers with a
gun, a rifle, at or about the time or after
the time you heard this noise that sounded
like car backfiring?
Answer: I don't remember."
Pages 31, beginning with Line 15,
question by Dr. Pepper.
"Ms. Spates, you say you were not
asked questions like this. Can you tell us
this: Did someone appear to ask you
something about this such as the questions
there?
Answer: Two TBI men came to my
house.
Question: Do you remember they
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were recording what you said?
Answer: Yes.
Question: And they also wrote out
some statements and answers. Do you remember
that?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Did you read that at any
point?
Answer: No, I didn't read it.
Question: Okay. And did they ask
you to sign it?
Answer: Yes.
Question: And swear that you were
telling them what you remember about it?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Okay. Were there any
questions they asked you that you did not
understand?
Answer: No.
Question: Did you understand all
the questions they asked you?
Answer: Yes.
MR. GARRISON: On page 52,
beginning with line 19.
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Question: Ms. Spates, back before
the assassination of Dr. King on April the
4th, 1968, had you ever seen a gentleman
whose name was James Earl Ray?
Answer: No.
Question: Have you ever seen the
gentleman whose name is James Earl Ray?
Answer: Yes.
Question: I'm sorry?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Would you tell us when
and where you first saw James Earl Ray?
Answer: On TV.
Question: Okay. Was that the
first time you ever heard his name called?
Answer: Yes.
Question: When you saw him on TV,
did you recognize him as being someone you
had seen -- ever seen previously?
Answer: No.
Question: At any time?
Answer: No.
Question: You never -- you had
never seen him in the rooming house near
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Jim's Grill, in Jim's Grill or any place
close by?
Answer: No."
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, I
have an exhibit that was taken by the
Tennessee Bureau of Investigation that I'd
like to read to the jury at this time. These
are the --
THE COURT: You may.
MR. GARRISON: -- are the
statements which were marked as an exhibit to
her testimony.
"It wasn't unusual to see Loyd with
a handgun but not a rifle. As to Kenneth
Herman's statement that I said James Earl Ray
is innocent, that is false. I have no
information that James Earl Ray is innocent
of the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King. I
also didn't see Loyd Jowers come into the
rear of Jim's Grill at six p.m. I was at
Seabrooks working when some of the girls
started crying and saying Dr. King had been
shot. I ran across the street to Jim's Grill
to be with my sister Bobbie. The policemen
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came in and told us to go to the kitchen area
of the grill. We were locked in the grill
for about an hour with other patrons. Maybe
a week before the murder of Dr. King, my
Sister Alta showed me a lot of money in the
kitchen of Jim's Grill in a broken stove. We
were going to get some, but Loyd put a German
Shepherd in the back there so we couldn't get
it.
Question: Ms. Eldridge" -- this is
Ms. Spates Eldridge -- "are you familiar with
William Pepper, Kenneth Herman, Loyd Jowers
and Wayne Chastain?
Answer: Yes, all except Wayne
Chastain. Originally I lost my job at the
Arcade Restaurant due to the publicity
continued coming from the death of Dr. Martin
Luther King. I did not see Loyd Jowers come
in the rear -- into the restaurant on 4/4/68
with a rifle or gun of any kind around six
p.m. I did see him come in the grill between
eleven and twelve noon on that day. I went
over there to talk to my sister Bobbie. I
was a shipping clerk at Seabrook. From
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eleven a.m. to three p.m. I did see Loyd come
into the rear of the grill with a rifle. I
asked him what he was going to do with the
rifle.
Who wanted you to say he saw Loyd on
4/4/68 with a rifle at six p.m. rather than
between eleven and twelve noon which you say
is noon?
Kenneth Herman, Loyd Jowers,
reporters from London.
Who did you work with at Seabrook?
Answer: I don't remember any
names.
Do you have any recollection of
meeting or seeing James Earl Ray at Seabrook
buying wrapping paper on 4/4/94?
No.
Do you have any information to offer
which may reveal James Earl Ray is innocent
of the murder of Dr. King?
No.
Did you give your mother or your
brother, Essie White, a rifle to keep for you
which may or may not have been used to kill
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Dr. King which you got from Loyd Jowers?
No."
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, I'd
like to have this marked as an exhibit.
(The above-mentioned document
was marked Exhibit 39.)
MR. PEPPER: Your Honor --
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. PEPPER: -- Plaintiffs would
like to move into evidence the entire text of
the deposition.
THE COURT: All right. Anything
further?
MR. PEPPER: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right --
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor,
there is a matter I want to take up out of
the presence of the jury for a moment.
THE COURT: Oh, okay. Ladies
and gentlemen, there a matter that the
lawyers want to discuss, and it would be
improper for you to hear that discussion. So
would you please --
(Jury out.)
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(Short recess.)
THE COURT: Mr. Garrison.
MR. GARRISON: If Your Honor
please, at this time we've completed all the
testimony and proof, and I'd like to move the
Court to take some action on this matter.
If Your Honor please, first of all,
I'd like to renew my motion yesterday for
mistrial. If my client had been here, he
would be testifying at this point. He is not
here because he is not able.
Also, if Your Honor please, I'm
moving for directed verdict in the case based
on three grounds. First of all, there has
been no proof of any damages at all. There
has been no proof anyone has been damaged.
There is no pain and suffering, nothing as
far as damages.
Secondly, if Your Honor please, as
to whether my client, Mr. Jowers, was
involved in the conspiracy, as Your Honor may
recall, three weeks ago yesterday you read to
the jury what a conspiracy consisted of.
There has been no proof that he was involved
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in a conspiracy here.
Thirdly, if Your Honor please, we've
alleged in our defense to begin with, which
has been known for a long time, that the
statute of limitations expired on this case.
I've given Your Honor several cases here that
I think are applicable, and certainly in this
case the statute of limitations would have
expired long before the suit was filed.
Your Honor, to go back over this
matter, as far as the damages are concerned,
there has been no proof that anyone was
damaged in any way. There has been no
conscious pain and suffering, no expenses,
there has been no anything that has been
proven as far as damages in the case.
Secondly, the only thing Mr. Jowers
has been accused of is taking in a box and
taking in some money and coming out the back
door, which now the witness has refuted and
said shes didn't say that. There has only
been one witness.
Even Mr. King, when he testified,
and also the other witness, said that Mr.
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Jowers simply said I did what I had done
previously that. That was to take in some
money from Mr. Liberto which I had done
previously. He said, I had no knowledge that
this would be to assassinate Dr. King. He
said, I had done this before. He said they
told me simply I would have a box that would
be delivered. I didn't know what it was. It
didn't say what it was on the box. I simply
took it and was told to be at the back door,
not knowing what I would be given, but he
said, I was given a gun. According to his
statement, it was smoking.
If Your Honor please, he might be
guilty of perhaps not reporting a crime, but
that's after the fact. Here we are where he
is charged with conspiracy, and there is
nothing to indicate that he was part of any
plan to assassinate Dr. King in any
conspiracy. There is nothing to indicate he
took any action in that regard knowingly,
that he was knowingly taking any action as
part of the conspiracy to bring about the
assassination of Dr. King.
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There has been no proof offered at
all that he had done anything except what he
had done previously, take in some money from
Mr. Liberto, according to him, which he had
done previously, also, that a box would be
brought into his place, not knowing what it
was for, what it would be used for, not
knowing what was in the box. He was told to
be at the back door and accept something, and
that is all that has been offered here to
Court.
If Your Honor please, as far as the
statute of limitations is concerned, way back
in 1993 Mr. Jowers was questioned by all of
the newspapers, television, Prime Time, and
certainly back then it was known whatever his
involvement was, what he claimed was his
involvement, which I just stated is all that
he has ever said.
Now, if Your Honor please, there are
numerous cases which I've cited here that
certainly would indicate this case would bar
the statute of limitations. Mr. King and
Ambassador Young said they met with
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Mr. Jowers but they never stated the dates
which would bring it within the one year.
Even if they didn't know it until then, they
never told this jury the dates they met with
Mr. Jowers.
Even assuming that they had no
knowledge of Mr. Jowers' involvement, up
until that point they would have had to say
they met with him on a certain date and we
filed suit within twelve months, because
that's what the cases say. Certainly, if
Your Honor please, there has been no proof to
that effect.
Mr. King has testified that he met
with Mr. Jowers twice, but he didn't state
the dates. He didn't say, we made some
reasonable effort to discover what
Mr. Jowers' involvement was in this case.
There has been no proof as to that.
If Your Honor please, in addition to
what I've already given you is another case
of Gosnell versus National Chemical, which is
cited as 674 Southwest 2nd 26 Series. The
Supreme Court says, "We point out that this
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finding," which they had previously said the
one year rule applies to wrongful death
statute, "has no bearing on the burden of
proof at trial which in this case would
require the plaintiff to prove that she acted
with reasonable diligence to discover what
had happened."
So, if Your Honor please, there has
been absolutely no proof here at all that
anything was done to discover what
Mr. Jowers' involvement was, if any, in this
case.
Based upon all the testimony the
Court has heard here and the jury has heard,
there is no way in the world that they could
even presume that the suit was filed within
the statute of limitations period, even if
you go back to 1993.
The case that I cited, your Honor,
Brasswell versus Carruthers, the Court holds
very stiffly that the one-year statute of
limitations for personal injury claims
alleged applies to a suit alleging
conspiracy.
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If Your Honor please, in this case
with what testimony there has been, there was
been no proof of damages, no proof of
conspiracy, there has been no proof that
there is any effort made to discover anything
that Mr. Jowers did or had any part in this.
There has been no explanation as to what
efforts were made, which certainly the
plaintiff would have had the burden to do.
I think, if Your Honor please, there
should be a directed verdict for the
defendant.
THE COURT: Mr. Pepper.
MR. PEPPER: Thank you, Your
Honor. As is the case with the Court, the
plaintiffs have just been hit with this
motion virtually at the midnight hour. It
seems that defendant is determined at all
costs to keep this matter from going to a
jury and the facts of the case from being
decided by a jury after all the proof has
been in.
With respect to the damages issue,
your Honor, three members of the King family
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have testified before this Court, and they
have testified in clear language as to what
the loss of Martin King as a husband and a
father meant to them as a family. It should
not be incumbent upon that family to appear
here and justify the pain and suffering that
they have felt all of these years. I submit
respectfully --
THE COURT: Let me ask you
this: Was there not a stipulation as to the
damages?
MR. PEPPER: That's what I
thought we had agreed, Your Honor. And the
damages that Dexter King testifying to as
having accepted following our stipulation was
that the family would seek only one hundred
dollars as a payment against the funeral
expenses. That was an actual dollar amount.
I don't think the family should be
held to task for not wanting to receive a
large sum of money from the jury in this
case. There was that agreement. And we had
agreed -- I thought we had agreed that there
was a hundred dollars as a funeral expense
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offset.
If it please the Court, your Honor,
I respectfully disagree with my colleague.
There has been such an overwhelming amount of
evidence in this case as to the involvement
of the defendant in a conspiracy that the
only reason that plaintiffs have not moved
for a directed verdict is because plaintiff
wished these issues to go before a jury and
wished to have a jury verdict as opposed to
imposing that burden upon the Court.
We submit that the testimony and the
evidence that has been supplied to this Court
and jury is overwhelming indicates and a
conspiracy. It is form the defendant's own
mouth, it has come from his own mouth and his
own experiences and his own admissions that
are now in evidence here. His admissions at
various times clearly indicated he was
involved. He has admitted being involved,
although he has said he was unknowingly
involved in what was going on. Plaintiffs
have testified, provided evidence, that that
is simply not credible, Your Honor.
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With respect to the statute of
limitations issue, your Honor, in evidence is
the tape of the meeting. It was put into
evidence and it was testified to here by
Ambassador Young and Dexter King. And very
clearly on this tape, your Honor, is the date
of that meeting which has been before this
Court from the time that this has been
admitted in evidence. The date is the 2nd of
March, 1998.
If it please the Court, this action
was filed on the 2nd of October, 1998, which
is well within the one-year statute of
limitations.
Your Honor, plaintiffs maintain that
it was not until the meeting that took place
between the defendant and Ambassador Young
and Dexter King that they concretely knew,
had notice, that this man was involved.
Yes, there were rumors. There were
reports. But the plaintiffs sought a meeting
with the defendant in order to clarify this
issue. They sought and sought that meeting,
and finally that meeting came about on the
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2nd of March, 1998. It was not that they
didn't try, that they didn't attempt to learn
as a matter of their own concern and
understanding as to what happened, but they
were not able to have that meeting until the
2nd of March, and the action then was filed
in the succeeding October.
So plaintiffs submit that it was
only at that point in time that they really
did know about it.
Further on the issue of the statute
of limitation, your Honor, in the case of
Steve Realty versus Ovaso, 823 Southwest 2nd,
195 Tennessee, 1991, Judge Lanier ruled that
the statute of limitations has to be pleaded
in the proper time and manner, and if it is
not raised in the proper time and manner, it
can be deemed at the discretion of the Court
to have been waived and it could not be
relied upon by the defendants.
We submit, your Honor, that this is
not the proper time and manner for this issue
to have been raised as we are about to close
and go to a jury, and it is a matter of
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discretion for the Court as to whether or not
the Court will allow it.
In Kakamecee (Phonetic) versus
Thurmond, 282 Southwest 2nd, 633, the Court
in that indication also refused to allow the
statute of limitations being applied because
it did not do so with promptness.
Your Honor, in such a case a state
out of limitations cannot be used for
dismissal unless it is clearly -- clearly --
within the Court's discretion to exercise
it. In the Gosnell case that was cited by
the defendant, the Court actually held
"Reasonable care and diligence in
discovering a compensability injury is a
question of fact for the jury unless under
the facts in the light most favorable to the
appellant there exists no genuine issue of
fact."
So even in the case of Gosnell this
matter -- the statute of limitations is a
matter for the Court, and I would
respectfully submit, your Honor, that
plaintiffs have come well within it.
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So on the issue of damages, your
Honor, I think that has been agreed to. It
has been stipulated.
And the issue of conspiracy, I think
the overwhelming amount of evidence even from
the defendant himself indicates that he was
involved in the conspiracy. The extent of
the involvement is admittedly something to be
determined yet.
And in the case of the statute of
limitations, Your Honor, it is entirely in
your discretion. In our view it is out of
time and should not be raised at this
moment.
We respectfully request that Your
Honor allow this case to go to the jury,
which is where we've been heading from the
first day.
Thank you.
THE COURT: Let me ask you, who
initiated the meeting between Mr. Jowers and
the Kings? Can anyone answer that for me?
MR. PEPPER: I'm sorry, Your
Honor?
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THE COURT: Who initiated the
meeting between the King Kings and Jowers,
and Mr. Jowers?
MR. PEPPER: Plaintiffs had been
wanting this meeting for quite a period of
time and had attempted through defendant's
counsel to cause the meeting to take place.
But for various logistical reasons on both
sides the date that it finally took place was
the 2nd of March, 1998.
MR. PEPPER: Your Honor.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, let
me say this in response to Dr. Pepper: There
has to be some proof from the witness stand
that the plaintiffs have taken some steps to
reasonably discover the cause of action.
This happened thirty-one years ago. In the
first response we filed to this lawsuit
months and months ago, we set out that this
lawsuit is barred by the statute of
limitations.
Of course, it is -- the plaintiff
has the burden of moving that they either
filed it within the time or that they used
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reasonable diligence in discovery that they
had a cause of action. Now, your Honor,
anyone that watches the news and reads the
newspaper in this country knows that back in
1993 Mr. Jowers was on Prime Time and made
certain allegations.
Even then, if Your Honor please, the
only thing he ever said was, I took in some
money from Mr. Liberto, which I had done
previously, he told me he would be sending a
package, I didn't know what it was, didn't
have anything on the box, and that he told me
to be at the back door.
Your Honor, is that evidence of
conspiracy? And "unknowingly" is not enough
according to the law. The law says that a
person has to knowingly be part of a
conspiracy, that they take some activity in
it and the act be carried out.
Here in this case he says he
unknowingly did the things he did previously
for Mr. Liberto, and that was to take in some
money for him. He said he handled money many
times previously.
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Now, if Your Honor please, I don't
think there is anything close to what we
would think of that would require a person to
be charged and held liable for a conspiracy.
There has to be some proof from the witness
stand as far as the statute of limitations
that the plaintiffs have taken due diligence
or exercised due diligence in trying to find
out if they have a cause of action. There
has been no proof here.
The only thing Mr. King said -- I
respect Mr. King and love him dearly -- was
that we met with Mr. Jowers. There is no
indication of time. There was no indication
that they had tried to meet with him
earlier.
In fact, Mr. King did meet with
Mr. Jowers earlier, months earlier. He knew
it then. That was long before, if Your Honor
please, as to what Mr. Jowers' statement was
to him about his involvement.
If the Court please, as this Gosnell
case says, the plaintiff has the burden of
proving that they filed it within the time or
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took reasonable steps to discover. There is
no proof here. There is no jury question
because there is no proof for the jury to
decide that they took reasonable steps.
In fact, if Your Honor please, I
think certainly I don't believe that Mr. King
or Ms. King or the family were lying to the
fact that Mr. Jowers had come forth. It was
all in the news media. Everybody I guess in
the whole country knew, around the world, as
far as that goes, that he had made some
statement.
At that time would have been the
time to investigate it, not years later. At
this point, if Your Honor please, it is too
late. As I say, we alleged this in our first
defense in this lawsuit months ago.
There is no proof here of damages
because we had an agreement that if the
funeral bill was presented, but it wasn't
presented. They've done nothing to prove
damages, if Your Honor please.
I think without question, if Your
Honor please, that the suit should be
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dismissed and the jury directed to find a
verdict for the defendant. The statute of
limitations has expired. There has been no
proof of damages. There has been no proof,
if Your Honor please, that Mr. Jowers was
involved in a conspiracy.
I can't think of anyone's testimony
that would qualify him to be a part of a
conspiracy knowingly. Even if you put him in
the light of best thing that the plaintiff
has to offer, there is no proof of a
conspiracy.
MR. PEPPER: If we had known we
were to provide a funeral bill for the cost
of the funeral of Martin Luther King, then we
would have done that, if that was required.
We didn't think this was required. We
thought it was agreed that there would be a
hundred dollar damage claim as an offset as
to what that bill was. So I think that takes
care of the damages issue.
In terms of conspiracy, the evidence
I think bears out in this case that
Mr. Jowers has said, and he said in the
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meeting with Ambassador Young and Mr. King,
that he knew somebody was going to be
killed. I didn't know who was going to be
killed. He knew something clearly illegal
was going on and he was a part of it.
What he has attempted to say is he
didn't know it was going to be Martin Luther
King. Both Ambassador Young and Dexter King
found that not believable and so testified on
the stand here.
With respect to the statute of
limitations, it is within the sound
discretion of this Court. But that is a real
issue. If that has been a viable issue, what
are we doing here for four weeks arguing in
case? Why wasn't that issue argued at the
very beginning, save the State of Tennessee
and the plaintiffs and everyone else
concerned with this all of the costs that
these proceedings have cost, not to mention
the time that this jury has had to put in and
the disruption of their personal lives?
That's when this issue should have
been raised if it is a real issue and not an
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afterthought as we're about to go to the jury
and let them decide. I submit it is within
Your Honor's discretion to rule on that issue
as well.
MR. GARRISON: I'll say one
more thing and close as to the issue the
defendant can raise an issue of defense at
any point during the trial. It was the
burden to prove this on the part of the
plaintiff. There has been no proof as far as
the statute of limitations. So a point of
defense, such as statute of limitations, can
be raised at any point during the trial.
- at this point we choose to raise
it because there had been no proof. If there
had been some proof regarding it, that would
be a moot question. There has been no proof
regarding it such that the plaintiffs have
took proper steps to determine they had a
claim against Mr. Jowers.
If Your Honor please, from what Your
Honor has heard in this case and from the
proof on the witness stand, there is none.
There is nothing. There is nothing the jury
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can decide as far as the statute of
limitations.
THE COURT: All right. As far
as the mistrial is concerned, I'll reaffirm
my judgment on that and deny the motion.
On the issue of damages, as I
recall, we had a meeting in my chambers where
we discussed damages, and I thought that the
parties had agreed and were going to
stipulate that if the jury reached a verdict
in favor of the plaintiffs, that the
plaintiffs were not attempting to recover a
lot of money out of this suit and it was
their purpose to have the truth come out and
to be sanctified, more or less, by a jury
verdict and that the plaintiffs were only
seeking nominal damages.
Pursuant to that discussion, the
plaintiffs presented proof that they were
asking not for the complete funeral expenses
but for something nominal, in the area of a
hundred dollars, as I recall, and that they
didn't even intend to retain that but that
they were going to share that with some
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charity. I believe that was the testimony.
As far as the damage question is
concerned, then I believe there was some
proof of damages in the case. Plaintiffs
made it very clear that they didn't intend to
recover all of the damages, that they could
never recover from the emotional distress and
all the pain and suffering that they have
experienced, but in the course of the
necessity to prove some damages, that they
were only going to ask for nominal damages in
the case.
As for the conspiracy, as I recall
the testimony, Mr. Jowers himself said that
he knew that something was going on and that
it was illegal and that he owed Mr. Liberto a
favor and that he would have done anything to
satisfy his obligation to Mr. Liberto, even
if it required him to do something more than
just hold money and receive a rifle.
I believe that the proof in this
case is overwhelming that he was aware that
some illegal action was going to be
committed. Under our theory of conspiracy,
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it is not necessary that he knows to whom the
damage is going to be invoked. As long as he
is a part of the scheme and knowingly
participates and it causes injury to anyone,
he would then be a part of that conspiracy.
Now, of course, I don't -- it is not
that I consider Judge Lanier an authority on
the question of statute of limitations, but I
think long before when the argument first
began I had written "waiver" on my notes,
because, as I recall, this is the first time
that the statute -- the question of the
statute of limitations has been raised before
me, and there has been too much invested in
this case to wait until the eleventh hour to
raise that issue.
Additionally, I believe it is -- the
statute of limitations is the kind of defense
that is the burden of the defendant to prove,
not the plaintiff, and I don't -- if this
original interview by the Kings and
Mr. Jowers, if it was -- if it occurred at a
time which would invoke the statute of
limitations, that would have been the
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defendant's duty to prove.
I believe that at this point, after
all of the proof is in, that the statute of
limitations, even though -- not even deciding
whether or not it was a legitimate defense, I
believe that it is improperly raised at this
time.
For all of these reasons, I'm going
to deny the motions. We will go ahead with
our arguments and our instructions and jury
deliberations.
It is a quarter to four now. It is
convenient for the jury to hear the argument
and then immediately hear the instructions.
It is also a disadvantage if one party argues
today and then tomorrow the next party argues
and the jury will have forgotten the first
one and the second one is the one that he was
heavily on their mind.
I hate to put it off until
tomorrow. I think maybe we ought to -- I
don't know what the jurors' plans are, but I
would like to know whether or not they have
any commitments that would prevent them from
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sitting through this process, which would
probably keep us until an ungodly hour
tonight if we would go into it, but I think
I'm going to consult with them and see
whether or not we should go on with this
process this evening or whether we should
stop now and just start freshly in the
morning.
Mr. James, would you please bring
the jury out.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Ladies and
gentlemen, since we're going to be here until
midnight, we were wondering if you wanted
pizza or barbecue.
We have completed the proof in this
case, and it is now time for the arguments of
the attorneys for the parties. They are
going to tell you, remind you, of what they
think the proof has shown and what they think
your verdict should be. The plaintiff has
the first opportunity to argue, and then the
defendant follows the plaintiff. And the
plaintiff then has an opportunity to respond
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to the defendant's argument. But that's the
end. It doesn't just keep going like that.
Once the arguments are complete,
then I'll give you your instructions, and you
will begin your deliberations.
Now, the parties would prefer that
you hear their arguments, get my instructions
and go right into your deliberations before
you forget the arguments and the
instructions.
We can do that one of two ways: We
can either go ahead with it until we complete
it tonight, or we can just stop now and get
into in the morning and make it a continuous
process.
I don't know whether any of you have
children in daycare or what your problems
are, if you have any problems at all. So my
question to you is if there is anything that
would prevent you from going on this evening,
or you would rather go home, come back
tomorrow morning? We want to accommodate
you. We also want to get it over with.
Do you all want to go back to the
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jury room? I'll give you five minutes if you
want to go back and discuss it.
A JUROR: Do you mind if we just
have five minutes?
THE COURT: Fine.
A JUROR: Thank you.
(Jury out.)
(Three-minute recess.)
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: What say ye?
THE JURY: (Unanimously)
Tomorrow.
THE COURT: That sounds
unanimous. All right. Let me suggest this:
Tomorrow we start hearing divorces at nine
o'clock. We'll transfer our divorces to
another division and we'll just get started
on this at nine o'clock, if that's all
right.
THE JURY: That's fine.
THE COURT: Very well, then.
Mr. James.
(The proceedings were adjourned
at 3:58 P.M.)
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