1719
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY,
TENNESSEE FOR THE THIRTIETH JUDICIAL
DISTRICT AT MEMPHIS
_____________________________________________
CORETTA SCOTT KING,
MARTIN LUTHER KING, III,
BERNICE KING, DEXTER SCOTT
KING and YOLANDA KING,
Plaintiffs,
Vs. Case No. 97242-4 T.D.
LOYD JOWERS, and OTHER
UNKNOWN CO-CONSPIRATORS,
Defendants.
_____________________________________________
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
December 6, 1999
VOLUME XII
BEFORE: HONORABLE JAMES E. SWEARENGEN, Judge
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI,
RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
COURT REPORTERS
Suite 2200, One Commerce Square
Memphis, Tennessee 38103
(901) 529-1999
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1720
- APPEARANCES -
For the Plaintiffs:
MR. WILLIAM PEPPER
Attorney at Law
575 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10022
(212) 605-0515
For the Defendant:
MR. LEWIS GARRISON
MR. JOHN H. BLEDSOE
Attorneys at Law
Law Offices of Lewis K.
Garrison, Sr.
100 North Main
Suite 1025
Memphis, TN 38103
(901) 527-6445
Reported by:
SHERYL G. WEATHERFORD
Registered Professional
Reporter
Daniel, Dillinger,
Dominski, Richberger,
Weatherford
2200 One Commerce Square
Memphis, TN 38103
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- INDEX -
WITNESS: PAGE NUMBER
LaVADA ADDISON
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON.......................... 1723
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER............................ 1727
DEPOSITION OF JAMES EARL RAY
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON.......................... 1731
EXHIBITS
Trial Exhibit 36 ......................... 1722
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P R O C E E D I N G S
(Jury out.)
THE COURT: Yes, are we ready to
proceed?
MR. GARRISON: If I might have
just one second. May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
(Off-the-record discussion held
the bench between Court and counsel.)
THE COURT: Bring the jury out,
Mr. James.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Good morning, ladies
and gentlemen. It's gratifying to see that all
of you have survived another weekend. All
right. We are going to proceed with the trial.
Mr. Garrison, you may continue.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, at this
time I have a report from the physician on
behalf of Mr. Jowers. I would like to have it
marked the next exhibit if I may.
(Whereupon, the above-mentioned
document was marked as Trial Exhibit 36.)
MR. GARRISON: I would like to
call Miss LaVada Addison.
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LaVADA ADDISON
Having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q. Good morning, Miss Addison. Let me ask
you please, ma'am, to tell us your full name.
A. LaVada Whitlock Addison.
Q. You live here in Memphis, Miss Addison?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I have known you many years?
A. Thirty-five or so I guess.
THE COURT: You spell LaVada, L
A --
THE WITNESS: L A capital V A D A.
Q. Miss Addison, you're in some type of
business presently, aren't you?
A. Yes, sir, I'm self-employed.
Q. What is the name of your business?
A. LaVada's Estate Sales. I sell contents
of homes.
Q. Previously you operated a restaurant
here in Memphis some years ago, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And where was it located?
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A. At the corner of Macon and National.
Q. All right. Let me ask you this:
During -- how many years did you operate the
restaurant?
A. I opened it in 1976 and sold it in
either -- latter part of 1981 or the first part
of 1982.
Q. All right. Among those customers that
came in to see you, would you tell His Honor
and ladies and gentlemen of the jury was there
a Mr. Frank Liberto?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you get to know Mr. Liberto pretty
well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was he in on like a weekly basis? I'm
talking about after he started coming in, daily
basis, how would you describe it?
A. I would probably see him possibly four
or five times per week.
Q. And you and Mr. Liberto had some
conversations quite a bit, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And some of these conversations would
be of things that happened in the past, am I
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correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Let me ask you this: Will you tell His
Honor and ladies and gentlemen of the jury was
there a time when there was some discussions --
I'm not asking you to tell me what he said
right now. But was there a discussion between
you and Mr. Liberto about the assassination of
Doctor Martin Luther King?
A. Yes.
Q. And was that some time after you got to
know Mr. Liberto pretty well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You had many conversations with him
about various things before then, am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, let me ask you this: What were
the circumstances that brought up the
assassination of Doctor King, do you recall?
A. We were sitting at -- well, we called
it a round table, but it really wasn't a round
table. It was just like two tables pushed
together and people would just kind of gather
around, drink coffee, and so forth. But at
that time there were -- just Mr. Liberto and I
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were the only ones sitting there. And the TV
was behind me and something came on the TV in
regard to Doctor King, and Mr. Liberto leaned
over to me and said in a low voice, I had
Doctor Martin Luther King killed.
Q. What was your response to that?
A. I said, don't be telling me anything
like that. I don't want to hear it, and I
don't believe it anyway.
Q. All right. Now, Miss Addison, all the
time you knew Mr. Liberto did you ever hear him
mention the name of Loyd Jowers to you?
A. No, sir.
Q. In fact, did you ever hear of
Mr. Jowers up until the last few months or
years?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. Did he ever tell you he was ever
in Mr. Jowers' restaurant? Did he ever mention
that to you, ever been in there?
A. No, sir, he never did.
Q. Is this the only time he had ever
mentioned that to you is that one time?
A. Yes, sir.
MR. GARRISON: That's all I have.
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THE COURT: Mr. Pepper.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. PEPPER:
Q. Good morning, Miss Addison. Did you in
the course of your acquaintanceship with
Mr. Liberto, did you come to learn anything
about his family?
A. Somewhat.
Q. Did he have any children?
A. He never mentioned children --
Q. He never mentioned --
A. -- that I remember, no, sir.
Q. But he was married?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And so you didn't learn
from him or from any other source whether or
not there were any children in that family?
A. No, sir.
Q. After he made this statement about
arranging to have Martin Luther King killed,
did you see him again?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Many times?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you recall what year that was again?
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A. The only way I can remember when I
opened the pizza parlor, I took a little
photography course at Memphis State and I had a
dark room set up behind in the back of the
pizza parlor where I developed pictures. And I
started taking pictures of customers, and I
started -- like the pizza parlor was like
north, south, east and west. And I started on
the south end towards the kitchen putting them
on the walls, black and whites, and all the way
around the walls, and on the west side I would
say Mr. Liberto and his wife's picture was
there pretty well even with the cash register.
And that should -- and some of those pictures
were dated 1977 and some of them were 1978.
And so it had to be during that period of time.
Q. So it was 1977 or 1978 that you had
this conversation with him?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Was the television on in the cafe at
the time that you had that conversation?
A. Yes, sir, it was on the top of the
jukebox behind me.
Q. And once again what -- do you recall
what was being shown on the television?
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A. No, sir. I don't recall. But it was
something pertaining to Doctor King.
Q. Something pertaining to Doctor King?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, when you saw him again, would it
have been over the course of the next year?
Did you see him for two years after that, do
you recall how long?
A. Probably a year or so. I really don't
remember. I would just be guessing. I don't
know how long it was.
Q. Right.
A. As you get older, time doesn't mean as
much.
Q. Of course. Of course. And did he ever
raise this subject again with you?
A. No, sir.
Q. It never came up in conversation --
A. No, sir.
Q. -- with you at all. Do you recall when
he passed away?
A. I don't know what year it was. I do
remember the obituary being in the paper.
Q. Would it have been soon after you
perhaps saw him for the last time or do you
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think there was a gap there?
A. I think there was a gap there.
MR. PEPPER: There was somewhat of
a gap. Okay. That's all. Thank you very
much, Miss Addison.
MR. GARRISON: I have nothing
further, Miss Addison.
THE COURT: All right. You may
step down, ma'am. You can remain in the
courtroom or you are free to leave.
(Witness excused.)
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, at this
time we would like to offer the testimony of
Mr. James Earl Ray.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. GARRISON: Mr. Bledsoe will
read.
MR. BLEDSOE: This is the
deposition of James Earl Ray which was taken
March 11 and March 12th of 1995 in the case of
James Earl Ray versus Loyd Jowers. Appearing
for the plaintiff was Doctor Pepper.
Representing the defendant was Lewis Garrison.
Also present was Loyd Jowers and Jerry Little.
James Earl Ray having been first duly
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sworn was examined and testified as follows and
his direct examination questioning by
Mr. Garrison.
(The following proceedings were
read by Mr. John H. Bledsoe from the deposition
of Mr. James Earl Ray.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GARRISON:
Q. Mr. Ray, I'm Lewis Garrison, an
attorney out of Memphis, Tennessee, and I
represent Mr. Jowers seated next to me. You
filed a lawsuit against him as a defendant.
I'm going to ask you some questions, and I want
you to be sure that I -- you understand my
questions before you answer them. If there is
anything I ask you you don't understand, tell
me and I will be glad to repeat it or speak
louder or say it in a way where you understand
it.
A. Okay.
Q. If you will be sure and don't shake
your head. She has to write down what you say,
and if you will, give a complete answer because
she will have to put it on the record what you
say as to the court hearing. And if you will
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give a complete answer, it will assist us in
knowing what you have testified to here today.
A. All right.
Q. Tell us your full name, sir.
A. James Earl Ray.
Q. Okay. And, Mr. Ray, I believe you were
born April 10th, 1928; is that correct, sir?
A. No. Let's see, March 10.
Q. I mean, March 10. I'm sorry, March 10,
1968 -- oh, 1928.
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday was your birthday. Okay.
You're presently confined to the Riverview --
River Bend --
A. River Bend Maximum Security
Institution.
Q. Security institution. All right. How
long have you been there at this location?
A. Since March 1991.
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, if I'm not mistaken, I
believe you entered a guilty plea on March
10th, 1969, in Memphis, Tennessee; is that
correct, sir?
A. That is correct. Yes.
Q. And you have been confined since that
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time?
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you some questions, Mr. Ray.
You were born in Alton, Illinois; is that
correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were the oldest of nine
children?
A. No, it was seven. A lot of these
records I don't know where you get them, but
they're not exactly correct.
Q. You're the oldest of seven children?
A. Yes.
Q. And your mother's name?
A. Lucille.
Q. Okay. I believe she died in 1961; is
that correct?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Did you grow up around Alton?
A. Did I grow up around Alton?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes. But I really don't want to go
into too many of these personal questions that
doesn't have anything to do with the Martin
Luther King case.
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Q. Well, Mr. Ray, according to our rules
this is what is called a discovery deposition,
and we are permitted to go into pretty much
wide latitude, and I'm going to ask you some
questions and I would like you to answer them.
We'll let the judge decide whether or not they
are proper.
A. Yeah. Well, I am not getting into too
many personal questions. You can ask them. I
don't think I'm required to answer them.
Q. Okay. How far did you go in school?
A. Two years of high school.
Q. And what school did you last attend?
A. Well, I would rather not answer that
either.
Q. Okay. Can you tell me the first job
that you held?
A. It was at the International Shoe
Company, Hartford, Illinois.
Q. How old were you when you had that job?
A. Fifteen, I believe.
Q. Okay. What did you do for them?
A. Well, they just made leather materials.
I couldn't go beyond that.
Q. Okay. How long did you work there?
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A. I would say about sixteen or seventeen
months.
Q. Okay. And where were you living then
when you worked for International?
A. Alton, Illinois.
Q. Before you became 18 years old -- 18
years of age, had you been arrested for
anything?
A. No.
Q. After the International Shoe Company,
then did you enter the military service?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What branch were you in?
A. I was in the Army.
Q. Okay. How long did you serve in the
Army?
A. Three years.
Q. Were you stationed overseas or were you
all in the United States all the time you were
serving?
A. Most of the time I was in Europe.
Q. Okay. You were I believe, Mr. Ray,
what is called an MP, is that correct, military
police?
A. No. I was in four or five different
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organizations. I was in -- I started out in
the quartermaster for about seven or eight
months, and then I was in the military police
for eight or nine months. And then I was in
the infantry several months and I was
discharged. I was in the infantry at the time
I was discharged.
Q. How old were you when you were
discharged?
A. About 20 years old.
Q. Okay. And where were you discharged
from, what location were you discharged from?
A. I believe it was Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey.
Q. When you were discharged, where did you
go from there?
A. Well, I didn't go any certain place. I
know I was in Quincy, Illinois, for a while
after I was discharged.
Q. Did you have an employment there?
A. No, not at that time.
Q. Okay. When did you have your next
employment after you were discharged from the
service?
A. I don't believe I had any employment
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after I was discharged from the service.
Q. You never were employed on any job at
all?
A. No. After you got out of the military,
they give you so much money every month for a
year.
Q. Okay. Did you continue living in
Quincy, Illinois, or did you go somewhere else
after that?
A. Well, I was in different places. I
can't recall them all because it's been a long
time. I lived in that general area, Quincy or
Alton, Illinois, generally in the St. Louis,
Missouri, area.
Q. Tell me the first time that you -- that
you were arrested and found guilty and served
time that you can remember?
A. The first time I think it was in 1949.
I would say about October of 1949.
Q. What state was that?
A. California.
Q. Did you have a trial or did you enter a
guilty plea?
A. No, I just entered a plea for attempted
burglary or -- I believe that's the charge.
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I'm not certain of that.
Q. How much time did you serve?
A. I was on probation for two years.
Q. Okay. Where did you serve your time or
you said you didn't serve time?
A. No, I was --
Q. All right. I'm sorry. And when you
were on probation, Mr. Ray, where were you
living?
A. Chicago, Illinois.
Q. Okay. Were you arrested any more after
that?
A. Well, I lived in Chicago for, let's
see, from 1950, the spring of 1950, until the
spring of 1952, and I was arrested for a
robbery in 1952. So I would say about May of
1952.
Q. That was in the state of Illinois?
A. That's correct. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what happened, did you --
were you convicted or did you plead guilty to
the charge of robbery?
A. Yes, I entered a guilty plea to the
robbery charge, yes.
Q. And did you serve time?
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A. Yes.
Q. How much?
A. Two years.
Q. Where did you serve it?
A. Pontiac, Illinois.
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Ray, you lived in the
Chicago area you said from 1950 to 1952 and did
you have any type of employment during this
period of time?
A. Yes. I worked all the time I was up
there.
Q. Where did you work?
A. I can't remember all the places that I
worked. I worked about three different places.
When I was arrested, I was working in Borg
Ericson, E R I C S O N, they made scales.
Q. What is the name of it again?
A. Borg Ericson. B O R G, I believe it
was, Ericson and they were --
Q. And they're in Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, you had a
robbery charge. You entered a guilty plea.
You had two years in prison. And when you were
released, where did you go from there?
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A. I went to Quincy, Illinois.
Q. Okay. And did you work anywhere there?
A. No.
Q. Were you subsequently arrested any more
for anything after that?
A. Yes. I was arrested for burglary in
Alton, Illinois, in --
Q. Okay. And what happened to that
charge?
A. Well, I got out on bond, and I can't
remember the date now. It must have been 1955
I would guess.
Q. Okay. Did you enter a guilty plea or
were you tried -- have a trial?
A. I never was -- that case was I think
nolle prossed or whatever you call it.
Q. All right. And then after that what
happened to you?
A. I was arrested again. Subsequently I
was arrested for I think transporting state --
stolen documents across the state line.
Q. Okay. And what state was that in?
A. That was in Missouri. It was a federal
charge.
Q. And did you have any trial or enter a
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guilty plea on that?
A. I entered a guilty plea on that and
received three years -- and --
Q. Where did you serve your time?
A. Forty-five months in Leavenworth,
Kansas.
Q. After you were released from there,
where did you go next?
A. I was released from there in 1958 I
believe it was.
Q. Okay. Where did you move or where did
you live then?
A. Oh, I went to Saint -- yes, I went to
St. Louis, Missouri.
Q. Did you have any employment there?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Okay. Who did you live with there,
Mr. Ray, anyone?
A. Well, I lived with myself mostly.
Q. Okay. Were you arrested any more then?
A. Yes. After about a year and a half
there, I was arrested for armed robbery, yes.
Q. Anyone arrested with you?
A. And car theft. Yes, someone, an
individual named James Owens.
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Q. Okay. And that was in the St. Louis
area?
A. Yes, that was in St. Louis, yes.
Q. All right. And what happened to that
charge?
A. Well, I went to trial on that charge,
and I received a 20 year sentence.
Q. Okay. Where did you serve your time?
A. At Jefferson City, Missouri. I never
did serve the complete sentence. I escaped
before time had expired.
Q. Okay. How much time did you serve
before you escaped?
A. Well, I guess about six and a half
years, something like that.
Q. Was this the -- in other words, this is
the time you actually escaped and you made --
in the bread truck; is that correct?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. Now, you had tried to escape or did
escape I believe or attempted to before that,
am I correct, sir?
A. Yes, twice, yes.
Q. Did you actually get out of the prison
compound on the other --
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A. No, I didn't.
Q. When you were in the prison in
Jefferson City, Missouri, I believe you worked
as a cook or in the bakery.
A. Yes, I had several jobs, but when I
escaped, I was working in the -- a section of
the bakery.
Q. You had had, Mr. Ray, I think some
training to mix dyes at some point, am I
correct, sir?
A. Well, that's when I was working for the
shoe company in 19 -- when I was in Hartford,
the job I mentioned previously in 1944 I
believe it was.
Q. Did you -- after you left there, did
you ever work anywhere in this type trade where
you were mixing dyes and those type things?
A. No, I haven't -- no.
Q. Okay. Now, what year did you escape
from -- the last time, in the bread truck?
A. Well, that would have been in 1967,
April.
Q. All right. Now, you -- I believe you
had left and you eventually made your way to
the Chicago area, am I correct?
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A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Well, I think a little over two months
I would say. Eight or ten weeks.
Q. When you were there two months,
Mr. Ray, did you work any place?
A. Yes, I worked in a restaurant in
Winnetka, Illinois, which is a suburb of
Chicago.
Q. Okay. And you were there about two
months?
A. Yes, approximately, maybe a little bit
longer. I'm not certain.
MR. BLEDSOE: And then Mr. Pepper
states: Excuse me, Miss Parks, if you have
problems with any of the spelling of any of the
names, please let us know. Resuming question.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when you left the
Chicago area, where did you go then?
A. Well, after I accumulated a certain
amount of identification, I was -- I was
working under a false name of John L. Rayns.
Q. How did you spell that last name?
A. R A Y N S.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
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A. After I left there, it was my
intentions to go to a foreign country. So I
had one more check coming so I went to Quincy,
Illinois, and I stayed around there eight or
ten days, I guess. I'm not certain just how
long.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, I want to back up a
moment here. Back in the time you were serving
in the last prison where you escaped from --
A. Yes.
Q. -- did you ever serve any time where
there was some black prisoners that you were
confined with?
A. Well, there's blacks in all prisons,
yes.
Q. But my question is, did you serve any
time in the area where there were black
prisoners?
A. Oh, yes, they're all mixed in.
Q. So your answer is yes, you did serve
where there were black prisoners integrated in
the area where you were serving -- where you
were in the cell, in that cell block; is that
correct?
A. Well, the cell blocks were segregated
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but, you know, you're on the yard and things of
that nature.
Q. Okay. And was there one time when you
had a chance to be transferred -- I'm sure you
have been asked this before -- and you turned
it down because there were black people in the
area where you would be transferred in the cell
block area?
A. I was talking -- excuse me, are you
talking about Jefferson City?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No, no, I think what you're talking
about is the Leavenworth, the Leavenworth
prison.
Q. Okay. Did that happen, just what I
just --
A. No, not necessarily it happened. At
the time I was in Leavenworth, I was due to be
discharged in about five or six months. And at
the time they offered to send me outside to
work in what they call the dormitories.
Q. Now we are talking about Leavenworth,
the federal prison.
A. The federal prison. I was inside the
walls and they offered -- I could go outside
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and work in the dormitories and one of the
other prisoners told me that people had been
getting drug charges out there. If you get --
I think the procedure was if you were arrested,
if there was marijuana, I'm talking about
marijuana, if you were arrested, you could get
two years if you entered a guilty plea. If you
went to trial, you got ten years. And their
position was that, it seemed to me, the general
consensus was most of the blacks smoked
marijuana and the whites were drinking alcohol.
So I didn't want to go out there under those
conditions where everyone was mixed up in the
same dormitory room. So I didn't go out there.
Q. You turned it down?
A. Yes. It had nothing to do with any
race issue.
Q. Okay. When you were working in Chicago
at the restaurant, were there people of the
black race working there with you?
A. In Chicago? Just about all except me
and one other individual. I think there was
about -- there was about seven or eight there
in the restaurant and I think it was two
whites, me and another guy. And that's not
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counting the waitresses. The waitresses, I
don't know about those, they worked out in
front.
Q. What was the reason you left that job
in Chicago?
A. What was the reason? Well, there was
several reasons. I just went to work there to
accumulate some money. When I escaped from the
Missouri prison, I had $250. I wanted to
accumulate some more money to where I could go
to Canada. Also I was concerned about -- I was
using one of my brother's Social Security
numbers and I was concerned that it might get
checked and find out that, you know -- I mean,
it wasn't me. So there really was no point in
staying there any longer. I accomplished what
I set out to do. I got the identification. I
got -- I made seven or eight hundred dollars
and so I was ready to leave.
Q. All right. What type of identification
did you get?
A. Well, when I escaped, I didn't have
nothing except the Social Security number.
Q. You had no card?
A. No, I didn't have the card.
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Q. Just a number?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. While I was up there, I purchased a car
and I got it underneath the Ryan name -- the
Rayns name.
Q. Okay. Was the Social Security card
issued to you in that name, is that what you
got?
A. The Social Security number?
Q. No. You said you got something. What
kind of identification did you get? Was it a
Social Security card, driver's license or what?
A. No. Well, when I escaped from prison,
the only identification I had was a Social
Security number. My brother, he had seven or
eight apparently, and he gave me one of them to
use.
Q. Okay.
A. So I went to work at the restaurant in
Winnetka, Illinois, I gave them my Social
Security number and my name as being John L.
Rayns. Subsequently about the identification I
purchased a car I think for a hundred dollars
under the Rayns name and I got a title, which
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is, you know, identification.
Q. Okay.
A. And then I went and took the driver's
test and got a driver's license.
Q. That's in the state of Illinois?
A. That's the state of Illinois.
Q. What name did you use?
A. The John L. Rayns name.
Q. Is that the name you were working --
using at the restaurant, John L. Rayns?
A. Yes, John L. Rayns, yes.
Q. Okay. Had you ever used that name
before this?
A. No. As I mentioned, it wasn't really
one of my aliases. I just got that -- I
borrowed it from my brother.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, tell me the first alias
you used, if you recall, other than your real
name?
A. You mean to begin with all the way
back?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That would be hard to say. I have used
quite a few of them.
Q. Well, tell me the first one you
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remember using.
A. Probably the first one I used was in
Mexico in 1955 I believe it was. I think I
used James, James O'Connor.
Q. James O'Connor?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, let me ask you something about
that. Did you have any kind of a Social
Security card, driver's license or anything
with that name on it ever?
A. No. At that period of time Social
Security cards were -- they were not good
identification. The purpose was not for
identification at that time. I know now they
are, but they wouldn't accept that type of --
Q. But did you ever have any kind of
identification, driver's license, title of
any -- of an automobile, anything with that
name on it?
A. What name is that?
Q. James O'Connor.
A. Apparently I did. I was -- if I
crossed the border with the car because I know
Mexican customs officials check your title and
your driver's license.
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Q. And you were in Mexico in 1955; is that
correct?
A. Let's see, what year was that? No,
that would have been -- no, it wasn't 1955. It
was 1959. That's when it was.
Q. All right. Did you ever actually know
anyone named James O'Connor?
A. I never did know anyone like that. I
know when I was arrested the detective's name
was that and he got kind of upset about it.
But I didn't use -- I didn't get it because it
was his name. I didn't even know him.
Q. Okay. Tell me the next alias you used
that you remember.
A. Well, I can't recall any more now. I
might use one in a motel, but I can't recall
something I would use over night or something.
Probably the only ones that I can recall
subsequently was -- is the ones I used after I
escaped from the Missouri prison.
Q. Well, okay. Let's go back when you
were in Los Angeles, what name did you use out
there?
A. I think I used my regular name, James
Ray.
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Q. When you were going through bartending
school, what name did you use?
A. Now you're talking about Los Angeles?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. In 1949 or just this last time?
Q. When you were going through bartending
school.
A. Well, I was using the name Eric S.
Galt.
Q. And did you have any identification
with that on it?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what identification did you have,
driver's license, Social Security, anything
else?
A. Driver's license. And in Alabama they
have what you call a bill of sale for an
automobile and I had some other cards and
things of that nature to supplement the
driver's license.
Q. Now, before you use the name of Eric
Galt, what other names had you used, aliases,
that you remember before that?
A. Well, after I escaped I used the name
John L. -- John L. Rayns and that's the only
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one I used.
Q. That's the only one you've ever used?
A. Well, that's the only one I used -- no,
I used some after the Galt name but that --
Q. Okay.
A. The first time was Rayns and then I
went from Rayns to Galt.
Q. Okay. All right. Now, we are at the
point where you had lived in Chicago and worked
at a restaurant under the name of John L. Rayns
for two months. Where did you go when you left
there?
A. Well, as I mentioned earlier, I went to
Chicago. I was working on a check. I had a
check due and I stayed around. I left Chicago
and went to Quincy, Illinois, for eight or ten
days.
Q. All right. And you had a car at that
time; is that right?
A. Yes, I had a car.
Q. And you bought the car in the name of
John L. Rayns?
A. Yes.
Q. And you lived in Quincy. How long did
you live there?
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A. Well, I stayed there eight or ten days.
Q. We are looking at 1967, about that
time; is that correct?
A. Yeah. That would be around late June
or early July of 1967, yes.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, when you -- before you
escaped, was there times when you and some of
the other people that were there with you had a
discussion about Doctor Martin Luther King?
A. No, I don't have no recollection.
Q. You never discussed it with anybody?
You never even heard his name called all the
time you were in prison before you escaped?
A. If I did, I don't have no recollection
of it. I mean, there is all sorts of people,
you know, their names might come up but you
don't have -- since you're not interested in
them, you wouldn't have no recollection of
them. At that time we didn't have no
televisions or radios or things of that nature,
so...
Q. Are you aware of the fact that -- I
know you are because you have been at this a
long time -- that there are prisoners who gave
affidavits saying you did talk about Doctor
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Martin Luther King. You are aware of that,
aren't you?
A. I have read some of these affidavits
and I think there is one person that testified
to that. I know he was -- I know he was an
informant so I assume he just made up the
story. But I have read some of the statements.
I got the Congressional committee that
investigated the Martin Luther King case in
19 -- when was it?
MR. BLEDSOE: Doctor Pepper states
19 -- 1977, 1978.
A. Yes, 1977, 1978. I got some of those
statements and I think it was just one
individual that said that I ever mentioned
Martin Luther King.
Q. Was that true?
A. No, he was -- like I say, he was an
informant, and he wasn't in the Missouri prison
anyway. I think he was -- yes, he was in the
Missouri prison, but I think he checked in what
he is called protective custody after he said
that.
Q. Let me ask you this: Did you ever
discuss the assassination of President Kennedy
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with any of the people while you were in the
prison before you escaped?
A. I have no recollection of any convicts
ever talking about him. It might have been
maybe one or two days or something, but usually
if you're in the penitentiary, you have other
things that concern you, personal things rather
than politicians.
Q. Well, when President Kennedy was
assassinated, were you in prison then?
A. Yes, I was in the Missouri prison.
Q. How did you learn about it?
A. I think someone told me or something.
Probably come by the cell and told me because
as I mentioned we didn't have -- we did have
ear phones in one station but we didn't have
access to too much news.
Q. Okay. Did you ever have any discussion
with any of the prisoners or anyone else that
if someone assassinated Doctor Martin King,
they would make a lot of money?
A. Did I ever have any questions? No, I
never have.
Q. You never had any discussions before
the assassination of Doctor King with any
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person?
A. No.
Q. Now, you're aware again of the
affidavit that's been given stating that you
did say that?
A. I haven't seen these, all these
affidavits. I have seen one of them -- this --
an individual who was -- gave a story to the
Ebony magazine I think. I can't think of his
name but I know his -- there's 15 or 20 of
these affidavits. In all of them one party
says one thing and one says another.
MR. BLEDSOE: And Doctor Pepper
states: Counsel, you have any particular
affidavits you would like Mr. Ray to review?
Mr. Garrison: Not at the moment.
A. But --
Q. Go ahead.
A. But most of these are convicts. If I
drop dead today, you could probably go out here
and get a hundred affidavits saying that I
confessed to killing Martin Luther King. So I
don't put too much credibility in what
informants say.
Q. Okay. The person that you have seen
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the affidavits, was that person that you were
in a cell with or close to when you were
serving? Do you know the name of the
individual?
A. Well, first, I celled alone. I didn't
cell with anyone when I was there. I was in a
single cell most all the time I was in the
Missouri prison. I think maybe three or four
months I was in with another individual, but I
preferred a cell to myself so I usually celled
in a single cell. I can't think of this
individual's name. He was in Leavenworth when
I came -- when I went there, but I think they
transferred him to another place because he was
informing against these accomplices. That's
when I went to Leavenworth in 1955. And I
can't think of anyone else that's made these
affidavits.
Yes, that's his name, Ray Curtis. I
can't think of anyone else that made a hostile
affidavit against me except the one James
Bradley. He said something about he thought I
was dealing in drugs but that doesn't have
anything to do with the Martin Luther King
case. But I have never seen any affidavits
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where -- saying that I mentioned Martin Luther
King.
Q. Tell me, Mr. Ray, when and where you
first met a gentleman named Raul?
A. That would have been in Montreal,
Canada, in July of 1968.
Q. Okay. Where did you meet him?
A. A place called the Neptune Bar in
Montreal, in east Montreal.
Q. Okay. Had you ever been in the Neptune
Bar before this day that you met him?
A. I could -- before I met him there I
possibly could have been there once or
something because I was in that general area.
Q. Had you ever been in Montreal before
this time?
A. Yes. I had been in Montreal another
time, yes.
Q. How long had you been in Montreal?
A. Before that or that or this?
Q. When you met him, how long had you been
in Montreal?
A. I really hadn't been there very long.
I can't tell you just exactly how many days.
Q. Are we looking at days, weeks, months
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or what?
A. Yes, it would be days. Yes.
Q. You left Chicago and had gone to
Quincy, Illinois, and how long did you stay
there?
A. Where?
Q. Quincy, Illinois.
A. Probably eight or ten days.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. I went to Montreal from there. I went
back to Chicago and got a check and then I went
to Montreal.
Q. All right. You drove an automobile to
Montreal?
A. Yes.
Q. When you got to Montreal the first
time, is this the first time you had been
there, ever been to Montreal?
A. No. I had been there before.
Q. When were you there before this?
A. 1959.
Q. And how long did you stay in Montreal
in 1959?
A. I stayed -- I think I stayed there
about three weeks.
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Q. Do you remember where you stayed?
A. I can't remember the place. I know I
stayed fairly close to the train station.
Q. Now, between 1959 and this time had you
been in Montreal any more?
A. No, that was it.
Q. And what was your purpose in going to
Montreal?
A. In 1959?
Q. The last time. This last time you were
up there when you -- after 1959, the next time
you were in Montreal what was your purpose in
going there?
A. The last time you're talking about?
Q. Well, you were there in 1959 and you
said you were back again. That's where we are
right now.
A. In 1959 I was -- the police was after
me in 1959.
Q. All right.
A. Of course, they was after me again in
1968, too, but it was different circumstances.
Q. But you -- from 1959 you had never been
back in Montreal until 1968?
A. No, I hadn't.
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Q. In 1968 what did you go to Montreal
for?
A. Well, I assumed the FBI or the police
were after me at that time in connection with
the Martin Luther King, Jr., homicide.
Q. Okay. What made you think that?
A. Well, I would have to go -- to explain
that I would have to go back to where I was on
April 4th, 1968.
Q. Okay. Where were you on April 4th,
1968?
A. I was in Memphis, Tennessee.
Q. And what made you think they were after
you?
A. Well, this is sort of a complicated
thing. I will start April 3rd -- well, anyway
in April. I won't go over all the details on
April 3rd. Anyway I met this individual named
Raul on April 3rd in a motel called The Rebel,
the New Rebel motel I think it was. And he
asked me to -- we had been involved in other
things which I won't get into and he asked me
to meet him at a place he wrote down on a
paper, I think it was Jim's Grill, the next
day. He gave me the address, I think it was
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422 and a half Main.
Now, on April -- that was on April
3rd. I do recall it was raining that night.
Now, on April 4th that time I had a rifle also
with me when I was -- on April 3rd, and I
turned that over to him on April -- that night.
Then on April 4th I think I was
supposed to meet him there at Jim's Grill
probably about 3:30. Now, on April 4th I
checked out of the motel, I would just guess
about 11 o'clock or whenever they ring you out
of them places. And I was -- it was too early
to go to -- you know, to have this meeting set.
So I just more or less stalled around. And
I -- on the outside of Memphis, the outskirts
of Memphis I would say. I had a -- I was
getting ready to come back and have this
meeting and I had a flat tire so I had to fix
it.
Q. Where were you when you had the flat
tire?
A. It was somewhere south of Memphis. But
I'm not certain just where it was at.
Q. Okay.
A. So I changed the tire myself. I know
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it was outside. It was probably in Mississippi
is probably where it was at, right outside of
Memphis. So anyway I changed the tire and then
I went to -- drove into Memphis proper. And I
would say about ten or twelve blocks from
downtown I drove into a parking lot and I was
going to leave the car there and find out, you
know, this address. And the parking lot
attendant -- I asked, I asked him about the
address and he said something about it was
uptown or I think I -- I think what I asked him
specifically was where was uptown at. So --
Q. Had you ever been to Memphis before
this?
A. No, I never had been there, no. So I
did -- I walked uptown and went -- I could see,
you know, the high-rise buildings up there, and
I asked a policeman where this address was and
I had it wrote down. And he gave me general
directions.
Well, I got on South Main Street and I
went into a bar on the right side. I think it
was -- I don't know if I'm -- I could be
mistaken but I think it was Jim's something.
Whether it was or not anyway, I went in there.
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Now this is on the right-hand side of the
street going south, and I asked him about this
address and he said -- it was a woman. She was
tending bar and she said that it was down the
street on the left a block or so.
And while I was in there, there was
two individuals in there. I thought maybe they
were what appeared to be watching me. So when
I went in the place, I usually buy, you know,
something, a sandwich or a bottle beer. But I
don't drink beer, but I buy it. You know, you
just can't go in there and ask a bunch of
questions and sit around.
So when I left there, when I got to
Jim's Grill I was supposed to meet Raul in
this Jim's Grill, and he wasn't in there. But
these two individuals was. And I -- you know,
I was kind of concerned anyway because we was
dealing in rifles and things of that nature.
So anyway Raul wasn't there. So I
thought I would go get the car, the Mustang,
where I parked it in the parking lot and drive
it back up to the -- park in that general area
of Jim's Grill.
So I went back and got the Mustang and
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parked it, and I don't think I parked right
directly in front of Jim's Grill. It's my
strong recollection I parked it about ten or
fifteen feet south of where you -- where the
door is. And when I went in this time Raul
wasn't -- he was in there this time, and we
had -- we had a brief discussion, and I think
he asked me where I was at. He seemed mainly
interested in the Mustang.
So when we went out the door, he
wanted me to rent a room upstairs he said. So
anyway we went out the door. I pointed the
Mustang out to him because he was concerned
that I had it there. And so I went upstairs
and rented a room, and I don't know where he
went. He could have went back in Jim's Grill.
He could have sat in the Mustang. He had a set
of keys to the Mustang.
And after I was up there a short
while -- well, first I went and seen the
individual that rented the rooms. And to the
best of my recollection, I walked up and turned
right. And I walked down a small foyer I guess
it was and I turned -- came up the steps and I
went through and seen -- I went to the office.
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And the lady up there, I subsequently learned
her name was Bessie Brewer. I told her I would
like to rent a room for a week I think it was,
and so she had two rooms.
So she showed me two different rooms.
One of them was a sleeping room and one of them
was some type of room where you cook in. So I
told her I was just interested in a sleeping
room. So she rented me the sleeping room.
So after I had been up there, I wasn't
up there too long, Raul had come up there and
he -- we started talking, and he said that we
might be around there two or three days, a
couple of days, and he said, I should bring in
my clothing and everything I had and put it in
the room. So -- but I didn't do that. I think
I mentioned to him or that the -- you know, the
place was a wino's place because I could tell
that. I had been familiar with them type of
establishments.
But there was no door handles on the
door. They had a strap on them and they had a
strap on their door. So -- but I did bring an
overnight case up there, and I think I brought
a -- something else up there, something to
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sleep on or something. I think it was a sheet
or something.
So after we was up there a few minutes
and was talking about just general things, he
asked me to go down the street and check on a
pair of infrared binoculars. So he told me
generally where it was at. It was down the
street on the right somewhere. So anyway I
started. I looked for it, but I couldn't
locate the place. I think -- I believe this is
about 4:30 probably when I first rented the
room, the time I rented the room.
Anyway, I couldn't locate the place so
I came back up and asked him more specific
directions. So he told me more specific, but I
don't think I walked far enough I think is what
happened. So I went back and I asked the guy
about the infrared binoculars, and he inferred
that I would have to get them at the Army
surplus. He said he just had binoculars but he
said he didn't have any attachments to put on
them where you could see at night.
So anyway I just got -- I just
purchased the binoculars, what he showed me,
and I went back to the room and I just more or
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less set them on the bed and told Raul that if
he wanted the infrared, he would probably have
to get them through the military surplus.
So I hadn't eaten in a while -- in
quite a while by that time so I -- I had missed
lunch on account of having a flat tire so I
went back down to the -- I told him I was going
down to eat and I went down to a place
called -- I subsequently learned -- a policeman
told me it was the Chickasaw Restaurant. I
think he sat on the corner. I believe he said
it was underneath a hotel, and I don't know
what I ate there, ice cream or something. I
know I ate. And I recall -- apparently it was
the manager. He was instructing the --
apparently a new employee, a young black lady,
how to operate the cash register.
So anyway when I -- I stayed around
there a few minutes, I guess five or ten
minutes and I was back to the rooming house and
I -- I possibly -- I sat in the car a little
while, in the Mustang, before I went back up to
the rooming house. I have some recollection of
sitting in the Mustang.
So anyway, when I went back up to the
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rooming house, Raul, he was up there and he
suggested -- you know, he was going to meet
with some people later on that evening, and he
suggested that I go to a movie or do something
and not come back for a while. So I left there
and went back downstairs and I crossed the
street and went about two blocks up, and I
stopped in a restaurant. And I just more or
less sitting there, I think I had a beer or
something, and I was going to a movie. And
then I got to thinking about having a flat tire
earlier that day so I thought I would get it
fixed.
So I drove back -- I walked back down
to the rooming house, and got the Mustang and
then I pulled out of the -- waited in front of
the -- this Jim's Grill, and I don't know just
how far I drove. I may have drove three or
four or five or six blocks. But after driving
several blocks, I turned right and I think I
went either one or two blocks down there and I
turned right again. It was my intention to try
to get the tire fixed and then go park right
where I was.
I stopped at one service station and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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he said something about it was a busy time and
where he couldn't do it at that time. He was
busy, and I think there was another service
station on another corner, I'm not certain if I
went over there or not. I possibly could have
but I wouldn't testify to it under oath or
swear to it.
But anyway I went on back after this,
the attendant said couldn't fix it. I went --
kept going on south and I turned right and went
up to Main Street and I was going to turn right
again. Well, when I got to Main Street, I
noticed -- I looked down Main Street, and it
looked like three or four individuals or
policemen was running around down there, and I
think -- and I believe a squad car or a police
car was parked in -- blocking off the
intersection or blocking off the street or
something. It looked like he was waving
around, waving his hands around and possibly
waving people off.
So I just turned left instead of
turning right and I entered an area. It
appeared to be kind of a rundown area. It was
a lot of -- I think it was probably what you
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call a black neighborhood. So I drove real
slow through the -- slow through this
neighborhood and finally I come out on Main
Street, and it was my intentions to -- I had a
phone number in New Orleans, it was Raul's
number.
It was my intention once I got down
there to get on the outside of Memphis, maybe
three or four miles and call him up and ask
him, you know, if there was anything going on
down there because I know there was at least
one gun down there. I assumed there was one
gun down there and I tried to find out if the
police had raided the place.
So I would say about 15 minutes, I'm
not positive on this, they said that, there was
a bulletin that came over the radio saying that
Reverend Martin Luther King had been shot. So
I didn't pay too much attention to that. Just
I kept on driving, and it wasn't too long after
that it said -- I guess I was fairly close to
the edge of town. It said they were looking
for a white man in a white Mustang in
connection with the shooting of Reverend King.
So I decided then I would, you know,
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get out of Dodge, so to speak. So instead of
making any phone calls, I just kept going south
into Mississippi. And the first -- the first
highway I came to and made a left turn, I made
a left turn and then went -- and then I went on
to -- I returned -- from there I went on into
Atlanta and then from Atlanta I went to Detroit
and then back to Canada.
Q. Okay. Let me, Mr. Ray, back up now.
You had left Quincy, Illinois, to go to
Montreal. That was in 1967 I believe you said.
How long did you stay up there before you left?
A. How long did I stay in Montreal?
Q. We are talking about 1967, after you
had escaped.
A. Yeah. I would say about 30 days.
Generally 30.
Q. Is this when you met Raul that first
time you were there?
A. Yes, sir, that was in 1967, yes.
Q. Okay. Do you remember where you were
living up there in Montreal? Were you living
in a motel or a boarding home or how were you
living?
A. It was sort of an apartment complex. I
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think it was the -- I can't think of the name
of it. It was in south Montreal, what they
call the French section.
Q. And all the money you had at that time
was the money you had been paid at the
restaurant; is that correct?
A. No. That isn't correct. I escaped
with two hundred fifty dollars and at the
restaurant I made seven or eight hundred
dollars. Of course I purchased another car.
The car I purchased broke down and I had to buy
a Plymouth. I think when I got to Montreal, I
don't know how much I had, but I didn't have
too much.
Q. How much did you pay for the Plymouth?
A. A hundred and ninety-five dollars I
believe it was. Now, what I did in Montreal
the first day I was there, the fact is I set
the thing up before the day I moved into
Montreal. I held up -- at the time what you
call The Expo was there, The International
Exposition, and I robbed the brothel and I got
about seventeen or eighteen hundred dollars out
of it.
Q. Did you have a gun?
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A. Yes, I did.
Q. Where did you get the gun?
A. I had a .38 which I had purchased in
Birmingham, Alabama.
Q. Now, you have lost me. I thought you
had gone from Quincy, Illinois, to Montreal?
A. I had. But I had purchased the .38 --
no, wait a minute. That's -- that was another
gun I had. The -- we get out of sequence and
you get things mixed up. When I quit the job
in Montreal in --
Q. Chicago?
A. In Winnetka, Illinois, and went to
Quincy I went back to Chicago and got my check
and then I came to East St. Louis. I was going
to see my brother and I was going -- before I
left the country, I was going to arrange for
help and get him help, post office box and
things where I could write him.
Q. Which one of your brothers?
A. This was John Ray.
Q. All right.
A. I had another brother in Chicago and
his name was Jerry Ray. I used the -- most of
my contacts were around the St. Louis area.
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Q. How did you get the gun?
A. Well, there was a guy name Jack Gawron,
he was the -- I didn't know at the time but he
was an FBI informant.
Q. And where was he located?
A. Well, he lived in St. Louis. He lived
in St. Louis.
Q. All right. And how did you get in
touch with him?
A. Well, he didn't have no telephone, but
he had a bar where he took -- he took the
phones. He is in and out of this bar all the
time, and I called this bar and I made
arrangements for him to come and meet me in
East St. Louis, Illinois.
Q. How did you find out you could buy a
gun from him?
A. I didn't buy no gun from him. I knew a
fence in Madison, Illinois, so...
Q. What was your purpose in meeting
Mr. Gawron, Jack Gawron?
A. When did I first meet him?
Q. No, sir. I said what was your purpose
in meeting him?
A. Well, I was going to give him a message
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to give to my brother John Ray.
Q. All right.
A. I was going to see John, but I thought
maybe the police had him under surveillance, so
my brothers knew Gawron for a long time and
they trusted him and everything. They were in
the penitentiary with him in Illinois in Minard
Prison.
So anyway the Gawron, we went to
Madison and at that time I didn't have enough
money really to buy a gun. So he said he was
going to take it care of it and I guess he did
and I think he got --
Q. When you went to Madison, did you drive
your car or did he ride with you or did you
ride with him?
A. No, he couldn't -- he didn't have no
car.
Q. So he rode with you?
A. Yes, he rode with me.
Q. How far did you go with him? How many
miles did you drive?
A. From East St. Louis to Madison it's a
short distance. I would say it's about six or
seven miles.
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Q. Now, you -- who gave you his name? How
did you get acquainted with him, Jack Gawron?
A. Well, as I mentioned he knew my
brothers and he served time with them in Minard
Prison. Well, he got out on parole in 19 -- he
got out on parole in 19 -- I'm trying to think
when he got out on parole. When I got out of
Leavenworth, he got out of parole after I did.
Q. What was he there for in prison?
A. Apparently murder. He was on a life
sentence and he was -- he got out on parole
and that would have been 1955. At that time I
was selling wine. I was what they call
bootlegging and I met him -- well, my mother
she -- he came to see her and tell her, you
know, about my brothers, how they were getting
along, and I met him at her house.
Q. Now, when you were bootlegging, was
that before you were arrested to this last
sentence or was that before you escaped?
A. No, that was after I got out of
Leavenworth.
Q. Okay. That was between then and the
time you went back in for your last sentence
where you escaped.
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A. Yes.
Q. For robbery.
A. Yes. That would have been 1958, 1959,
yes.
Q. Okay. And where were you living when
you were bootlegging?
A. At that time I was living right on the
edge of more or less a wino neighborhood, but I
can't think of the name of the street. I
believe it was Lafayette Street.
Q. Was it in Quincy?
A. No, that was in St. Louis.
Q. Okay.
A. Lafayette Street in South St. Louis.
Q. Okay. Well, how did you know where he
was located and where to get in touch with him?
A. At that time?
Q. When you went with him to get a gun?
A. Well, as I mentioned, he didn't have no
telephone and I knew where he lived. But he
took messages at a bar. He was in most of the
time and they would give a message to him, and
I left a message with him, you know, where to
meet me.
Q. And he met you?
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A. Yes, he did.
Q. And he took you somewhere to East St.
Louis?
A. No, he -- yes, I met him in East St.
Louis. I gave him the name of a bar or
whatever.
Q. And he told you he would help you get a
gun or where to --
A. Well, I knew where to get the gun at.
I just took him down there and, you know, to --
he was going to pay for it after I left.
Q. Okay. How did you know where to get a
gun?
A. Well, I had dealt with this guy several
times before in 1954 and 1955.
Q. He was in St. Louis?
A. No, he was in Madison. He was a fence
in Madison.
Q. So had you bought guns from him before?
A. Yes, I had bought -- yes.
Q. Okay. And this gentleman, Gawron, rode
over there with you and you bought a .38?
A. Yes.
Q. From someone there in Madison?
A. Yes.
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Q. Now, where did you go from there?
A. Well, then I went -- from there I went
to -- I think I went to Indianapolis, Indiana.
Q. Okay. What did you go there for?
A. Well, I was on my way to Canada.
Q. When is the first time, Mr. Ray, you
were ever in Alabama, what year was it?
A. It would be 1967.
Q. It was after you escaped?
A. Yes. That's after I come back from
Canada. It would be August of 1967.
Q. You were in Alabama?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what was -- did you spend
any time in Alabama in any city the first time
you were there?
A. Well, all the time I was there I was in
Birmingham. I was just there one time.
Q. Okay. And what did you go to
Birmingham for in 1967?
A. Well, when I met Raul in Montreal,
he -- I'm leaving out some testimony. There
was other things I done. I'm just going to
stick with him. I'm not going to go into other
things I have done.
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We made an arrangement to -- he was
going to get me a passport. I was trying to
get a passport. He called them traveling
documents if I would help him take certain
things across the border in my Plymouth I had.
And I agreed to do this and I did take some
stuff, some material across the border in the
back seat of my car in July of -- I guess it
would be in August of 1967.
Q. Okay.
A. Well, at that time he claimed he didn't
have no passport, but he did give me about
sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars. And
before that we agreed to go to meet in
Birmingham. Initially he wanted us to meet in
Mobile. And then I said, you know, I would
rather meet in a bigger town. But actually it
wasn't my intention at all -- once I got the
passport and some money, I intended to go back
to Canada and leave the country. But I didn't
get the passport and I didn't get -- but I did
get the money and so I did, you know, agree
to -- I met him there.
Q. And that was the first time to be in
Birmingham though? What was -- that was your
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first time to ever be in Birmingham?
A. That's correct.
Q. The state of Alabama, period?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. When was the first time you were
ever in Atlanta in the state of Georgia?
A. Well, that's the first time I had ever
been there.
Q. On that same time?
A. Well, I was in -- I was in Atlanta --
no, I was in Atlanta -- in 1968 is the only
time I have ever been there. Now, one
exception is in 1955 I worked briefly for my
uncle and I went down there one time. I went
down to Florida one time, and he was -- he was
supposed to get a job down there. And we was
just down there three or four days. So I went
through the southern states. That's the only
time I have ever been through the southern
states.
Q. What was your uncle's name?
A. What?
Q. What was your uncle's name?
A. William Maher, M A H E R. We just
drove through there. It wasn't no overnight
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stay or nothing. So I am not certain, I could
have -- in 1955 I could have been through some
of those towns but I have no recollection of
which town I went through.
Q. All right. Now, you had gotten a .38
in Madison and Mr. John Gawron was with you.
Where did you go from there?
A. I went to Indianapolis, Indiana.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. Just over night.
Q. And then where?
A. I went to Detroit.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. I think what happened I was getting
kind of short on money. I think I slept in the
car one night. And I went to Detroit, and I
don't think I stayed there. I think I crossed
over and went right straight on into Canada. I
can't account for every day. And somewhere
in -- somewhere in Canada I think I slept in
the car maybe again. And then the first time I
rented a motel was in Dorion which is right
outside of Montreal. That's D O R I O N, I
believe is the way it is spelled. It's about,
like I say, three or four miles from Montreal.
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Q. Mr. Ray, after you got the .38 in
Madison, did you have any -- did you hold up
any place or rob anyone or take any money from
anyone before you got to Montreal?
A. No, I didn't, no.
Q. All right. Then you -- eventually --
then you eventually did get to Montreal, right?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: Let's stop here and
take a break, please.
(Brief recess.)
(Jury out.)
THE COURT: Bring the jury out,
please, sir.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: Mr. Garrison.
MR. GARRISON: We are going to
continue reading Mr. Ray's deposition.
THE COURT: All right.
(Whereupon, the following is the
continuation of the reading of the deposition
transcript of James Earl Ray.)
MR. BLEDSOE: Resuming the
deposition.
Q. Mr. Ray, after you got the .38 in
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Madison, did you have any -- did you hold up
any place or rob anyone or take any money from
anyone before you got to Montreal?
A. No, I didn't. No.
Q. All right. Then you eventually did get
to Montreal, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was in 1967?
A. Yes.
Q. About what month would that have been?
A. That would be sometime in July. I
imagine the latter part of July.
Q. And you had a what model Plymouth?
A. A 1962.
Q. Two door or four door?
A. I don't really -- I believe it was two
door, yes.
Q. What color was it?
A. I believe it was red.
Q. Did you know anyone in Montreal then?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And what was your purpose in going to
Montreal, what did you intend to do when you
got there?
A. I tried to get some travel documents
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and leave the country.
Q. Now, how long had you been there when
you met Raul at this Neptune Bar?
A. It was just days after I had been
there. It hadn't been over I would say --
Q. A week, less than a week, more than a
week?
A. It probably was a week or six to seven
days. It wasn't -- I wouldn't want to get
pinned down on just how many days.
Q. Tell us something about this Neptune
Bar. What did it look like? Is it a big open
space or was it a very small bar where you go
to sit-up at the counter or can you describe it
for us.
A. Well, it's got these -- it looks like
a -- something on the windows, I think, where
it looks like a ship steering wheel or
something. Inside of it has got kind of heavy
tables and then there is a bar in there and --
I don't know. It's just another bar except
it's -- it's fixed up like it's a -- make a
seaman feel comfortable. I think it's pretty
close to the waterfront.
Q. Did they serve food?
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A. I don't have no recollection. If they
did, I didn't order anything.
Q. Did they have men or women waitresses
and waiters or both or do you remember?
A. No, I think they had men. I think the
men served, bartenders.
Q. Okay. The first time you were in
there, is that something you just ran up on or
did you intend to go there when you -- in other
words, were you intending to stop at this bar
or was it just something you saw on the way?
A. Well, some of these bars get -- see, my
intention was when I went down there I
started -- when I started frequenting these
places, initially I had contacted a travel
agency when I first got there, and I asked them
how, you know, the procedure was to get a
passport and get out of the country.
Q. Do you remember what travel agency that
was?
A. No, I just made a telephone call.
Q. You just picked it out of the
directory?
A. Yes. And they told me that -- I
explained -- I put down some story about
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identification or something. I was from a
different city in Montreal, and they told me
that if I didn't have sufficient -- something
about identification, that I would have to get
what you call a guarantor, someone I knew two
years, and they would vouch for me and swear
that I was who I said I was. So I didn't want
to wait around two years.
Q. What ID did you have on you then at
that point?
A. In the -- well, at that point I had --
I had the Rayns. I had rented the room under
the Rayns name, the apartment. The only thing
I had identification was the Rayns but not -- I
said I rented a room and now I may have rented
a room under the Galt name because I changed
sometime. As soon as I got there, I changed
from Rayns to Galt, so I'm not one hundred
percent certain.
Q. What ID did you have on you, driver's
license, Social Security card, anything?
A. I had a driver's license and a title.
Q. Where did you get the driver's license
from?
A. I got them -- I had got them in
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Chicago, Illinois.
Q. Under the name of Rayns?
A. Rayns, yes.
Q. And you had a title to the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that an Illinois title that you had
on the car?
A. Yes, East St. Louis, yes.
Q. When you got the driver's license in
Illinois, did you not have to show a birth
certificate or anything at that time to get the
driver's license?
A. No, they didn't ask for anything at
that time.
Q. Did you have to take a test to get --
some kind of examination to get --
A. Yes. Well, you can get a book and read
up on it, and then when you take the test, it
makes it a little easier.
Q. I mean, that's what you did?
A. Yes.
Q. Where -- and this is in Chicago where
you got the license?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was under the name of Raynes, R
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A Y N E S?
A. R A Y N S, yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, you went to the Neptune
Bar, and did you meet Raul the first time you
were there or was it later that you met him?
A. I don't believe it was the first time I
was there. It probably would have been the
second time I was there. It could have been
the first. But what I was -- I was going to
these bars and I was making certain inquiries,
nothing to get me in jail, but, you know, I was
thinking about the possibility of I could
either catch a merchant seaman drunk and, you
know, more or less roll him. Or I could -- of
course, a merchant seaman's papers is traveling
just like a passport or I could possibly buy
one. So someone possibly could have mentioned
my name to him so -- but it was earlier there.
It could have been the first time or it could
have been the second, but it was one -- it was
one of the first times I went in there.
Q. Okay. Were you at a table or sitting
at the counter or on a bar stool?
A. No, I was sitting at a table, yes.
Q. And were you there before he was or was
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he there before you were?
A. No, I was there before he was.
Q. Were you sitting with anyone?
A. No.
Q. And he came in. How long had you been
there when he came in?
A. I can't recall. It probably wasn't --
it wasn't very long I don't think. Because I
never did stay around bars too long.
Q. Okay. Were there many people in the
bar at that time?
A. I don't believe there was, no.
Q. And when he came in, what attracted you
to him or how did you get the conversation
started with him?
A. I didn't start the conversation with
him. He sat down and started the conversation
with me, and we were just talking about general
things and I told him --
Q. Like what general things, the weather?
A. Yes. Where we was from and things of
that. Generally what we were doing. I think
he mentioned something about he might have -- I
can't recall everything he said. He might -- I
kind of got the impression he was in the
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Merchant Marines, and I told him I was in the
United States and I was interested in -- I was
interested in, you know, being on a ship and
things like that.
Q. When you were in this Neptune Bar, did
you have the gun with you?
A. No. I never carried the gun with me.
I still had the gun, but I wasn't -- I didn't
carry it around with me.
Q. Okay. Can you tell us this about
Raul, about what size person was he, was he
five foot ten, five foot eleven, five foot five
or was he taller than you or shorter than you?
A. Well, I'm five foot ten. I just
assumed he was around five foot eight or nine
or maybe a little -- somewhere in that general
area. It's hard to estimate people's weight,
but I didn't think he, you know, weighed a
whole lot.
Q. When he came in, what were you
drinking?
A. I was probably drinking a beer or
something like that.
Q. And when he came in, did he just come
straight to your table?
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A. Well, I really didn't know. I know he
showed up at the table. I usually don't pay
too much attention to people when I got in a
bar, and I usually don't stay in there too
long. Of course, I don't drink beer. I might
sit there, and, of course, as I mentioned
earlier, you have to buy something. I was just
more or less sitting there resting or thinking
what I was going to do next. I assume that is
what I was thinking about.
Q. So you were at the table by yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. When he came in, did he get anything to
drink, any beer or whiskey or anything that you
can recall first?
A. Yes, he probably got a beer. Yes, I'm
fairly certain of that because usually that's
the general practice.
Q. Okay. What was he dressed in? Was he
all dressed up or did he have on anything that
you can remember at this moment? Did he have
on a coat, shirt, what?
A. He just had a -- he just had a suit on
and a shirt.
Q. With a tie?
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A. No, he didn't have no tie on.
Q. A dress suit?
A. Yes. It was dark, a dark dress suit.
Q. Did he wear glasses?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. So he came over to your table, and you
were there by yourself and did he have
something in his hand to drink or did he order
something after he sat down there with you?
A. I really don't remember the small
details, but I'm certain he had something,
ordered something to drink.
Q. And you and this gentleman struck up a
conversation, just general things such as the
weather or something like that and how long did
you sit there with him?
A. Well, I don't know. It wasn't too
long. I mean, I have had -- I have had
hundreds of conversations in bars with people.
That's what usually gets me in the
penitentiary, but I was -- we didn't sit there
too long I don't think. We just started
talking and I was showing an interest in, you
know, travel documents or getting in the
Merchant Marine or something I think.
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Q. You told him then that you were the
first -- that you were -- the first time that
you were interested in some travel documents?
A. No, I don't think I mentioned it that
time. No, I just told him -- I told him I
liked to travel and, you know, Merchant Marine
or something like that.
Q. Okay. How long did the two of you talk
would you say that first night? I mean, are we
talking about a night or in the daytime?
A. No, this was in the daytime.
Q. Okay. Two o'clock in the afternoon,
five o'clock, what?
A. It was in the afternoon, but I couldn't
give you --
Q. Still daylight?
A. Yes. But it wasn't -- I know it wasn't
nighttime.
Q. I may have asked you earlier but how
long had you been in when he came in, just five
minutes, ten minutes, an hour or what?
A. I don't think I had been in there too
long because I --
Q. Less than hour?
A. The reason -- yes, the reason I say
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that is because I don't stay in them places too
long.
Q. Okay. And you and Raul talked 30
minutes, an hour, what?
A. Yes. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes,
something, just talking.
Q. Who decided to leave first? Did you
say you had to go or he said he had to go or
what happened that you broke up?
A. Well, I think either me or him -- it
was probably him. He probably mentioned he had
to go somewhere or something. But we agreed to
meet again and just talk about things.
Q. What was the reason you agreed to meet
again when you met a man you had never seen for
15 minutes? What was the reason you agreed to
meet him again?
A. Well, he seemed -- I mean, I got the
impression from talking to him -- I have talked
to these people as I mentioned, you know,
several times in bars and things, and I just
got the impression from the way he acted and
the way he looked and the way he talked that I
might be able to make a deal with him. So I
didn't have anything else to do so I just --
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Q. Now what led you to that? What did you
see about him that led you to that? I mean,
did he say something or are you just assuming
that from looking at him or what?
A. Well, the way he talked and he seemed
like -- he seemed to be -- he gave me the
impression he might help me or something like
that.
Q. But what did he say specifically that
made you think that?
A. Well, just the way he talked about
the -- you know, getting in the Navy and
things, getting in the Merchant Marines and
travel documents and I just -- I really didn't
have anything to lose so we discussed things,
and he said, you know, we will talk about it
some -- we will talk about it some other time.
And it didn't seem unusual to me at all.
Q. Did he tell you he had been in the
Merchant Marines?
A. I got the impression. He never did
tell me much of anything really, but I got the
impression from the conversation.
Q. All right. And you were there with him
15 minutes or so and you were just under the
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impression from the way he talked that he might
help you?
A. Yes, from what he said and things of
that nature.
Q. Did he ever say I know some way to help
you or I can get someone to help you or I
can -- anything that he could do for you that
you remember now?
A. He gave me that impression. I can't
remember all the details what he was saying,
the vibrations I was getting that he could do
it. He might be able to do it, and as I
mentioned, I just -- as I mentioned, I didn't
have anything else to do and I just agreed
to --
Q. Did you mention to him then you needed
a passport?
A. Not at the first meeting. We got
around to that later.
Q. Okay. When did you see him again?
A. Well, I think I seen -- I think I seen
him another time and --
Q. The next day, next week, next month?
A. Yes. I think it would be probably a
couple of days. I don't think it was the next
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day.
Q. Was that an intentional meeting, you
intended to meet him or was that just a
by-chance meeting again?
A. No, we said we would meet somewhere.
Q. And where did you meet?
A. Well, we met at the same place there.
Q. Okay. Were you there first or was he
there first?
A. I was there first.
Q. All right. And when he came in, was he
dressed about the same as he was before or was
he dressed differently this time?
A. I don't know if he had the same -- he
was dressed about the same. I don't know if he
had the same suit -- same color suit on, but he
didn't have no tie on and he had his shirt
buttoned and collar, but that's the only thing
I noticed about him.
Q. Can you tell us something about -- what
would have been his weight roughly, what would
you just guess his weight to be?
A. Well, I thought he weighed about one
forty or forty-five pounds, but I just can't be
certain on someone's weight like that.
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Q. What color hair did he have?
A. He had a kind of a -- it was a dark
hair. It's not auburn, but it's real dark with
what I would call a slight red tint in it.
Some -- maybe dyed his hair or something.
Q. Did he have a part in his hair?
A. No. It was just kind of wavy and
combed back.
Q. Maybe I asked you earlier, was he
wearing glasses?
A. No.
Q. He was not wearing glasses. All right.
Anything else you observed about him, Mr. Ray,
such as was he right handed or left handed?
When he drank, would he use right hand or left
hand or did you observe him that closely?
A. No, I didn't observe him that -- no.
Q. Did he talk like he had been someone
that had been grew up in Canada or in Detroit
or someone in Tupelo, Mississippi, or where?
What was your impression of him?
A. Well, he had a somewhat Spanish accent
and I had had a lot of association with
Mexicans. I have been to Mexico before and in
Leavenworth I knew a lot of Mexicans. The fact
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is I tried to learn to speak Spanish at one
time so I was certain that he was -- well, he
could have been something other than Spanish.
There is other people, you know, that speaks
the Latin language besides Spanish. But I just
assumed he was -- came from a Spanish speaking
country.
Q. Did you presume that from the way he
looked or the way he talked or both or what?
A. Well, the way he talked and the way he
looked, both.
Q. Was he light skinned, dark skinned,
medium, what, how would you --
A. No, he was sort of -- he was more dark
than the average Anglo-Saxon.
Q. The first time that you saw him did he
tell you his name?
A. Yes, he said it was just Raul.
Q. Did he pronounce it that way or was
it -- is that the way he pronounced Raul or
was it just Raul or do you believe --
A. I believe he kept pronouncing it Raul.
I don't think he -- he didn't just say Raul.
I think --
Q. What name did you give him as being
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your name?
A. Well, at that time I gave him my name
as being Eric Galt.
Q. So that's what he knew you as then?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you tell him your full
name or just your first name the first time you
saw him?
A. I think I just told him -- probably
just told him Eric.
Q. Okay. And he told you his name was
Raul?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. The next time that you met
him you were there first and did he come in and
sit down at the table with you, same table or
close by the same area that you were?
A. Yes. It was the same general -- you're
talking about the second meeting?
Q. The second meeting, right.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you begin having a
conversation with him then?
A. Yes. He got more deeply in the -- you
know, the -- you know, what we was talking
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about.
Q. Okay. What did you tell him you wanted
out of him?
A. Well, I just told him I was interested
in, you know, travel documents and things of
that nature and --
Q. Okay. When you mentioned travel
documents, what do you mean specifically, visa,
passport or what, or both?
A. I don't really -- travel documents is
what -- he referred to that name. I
subsequently learned travel documents is --
what is it? It's a one-way ticket to a place
where there is no return. There is no return.
It's just that one way.
Q. Up to that point, Mr. Ray, had you ever
had a passport?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. Ever had a visa or any reason to apply
for either one of those?
A. Well, I had one in Mexico, but you get
a visa going down there, but other than that I
never had one.
Q. You were in Mexico I believe you said
in 1959?
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A. Yes.
Q. And when you entered that country, what
name were you using?
A. I believe that's when I was using the
O'Connor name.
Q. The one you had mentioned earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How long did you and Raul
stay together this time, the second visit,
would you say?
A. I would say we stayed together a little
longer.
Q. Fifteen minutes, thirty, an hour?
A. Yes. We probably -- thirty minutes or
so. I don't -- I think we had a little
conversation after we left there, too.
Q. All right. Who left first, you or this
Raul?
A. Yes, I believe at that time we left at
the same time. We discussed some things, you
know, walking down the street.
Q. Okay. When you were in the Neptune,
what did you talk to him about the second visit
specifically?
A. That was about -- we got more specific
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and I was talking about, you know, foreign
countries, going to foreign countries and
things like that. And he indicated he could
help me do --
Q. Did he tell you you would have to have
some money?
A. That I would have to have some money?
Q. For him to get this -- to help you.
You said he said he thought he could help. Did
he say you could have -- did he say you would
have to have some money?
A. I can't quite understand. Did he
want --
Q. Well, or --
A. Did he want me to pay him?
Q. That's right. Yes.
A. No. There was no -- never any question
about me giving him money, no. But --
Q. Did you tell him where you wanted to
go?
A. No, I didn't tell him where I wanted to
go, no.
Q. Okay. Now, you said you left with him
and you walked outside. And what did you talk
about when you walked outside?
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A. We made -- I had mentioned in the -- I
had mentioned in the bar and I probably
mentioned on the outside, too, that well -- I
wouldn't have mentioned it twice. I probably
went over the details when I went outside. At
that time I decided to try to possibly get one
from someone being my -- being a guarantor
because I was kind of concerned about getting
involved.
Q. You're talking about someone giving an
affidavit saying they knew you and could vouch
for you, that you were a citizen of Canada and
those type things; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. How were you going to do
that?
A. Well, I was thinking about trying to
meet a female and see if she could possibly
help me do it. So before -- I think before I
seen Raul the second time, I went to a travel
agency and asked him, you know, if there was
any resorts close by that I could go, you know,
for six days, six or seven days. And they gave
me one called the Gray Rocks and it's right
outside of Montreal.
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So anyway I met -- when I seen Raul,
I didn't tell him I was going to try to meet
someone and get me a guarantor. But I told him
I would be gone for a week and I had some
business to take care of. And he said, okay.
And so I did go to Gray Rocks and I did meet a
woman after I was up there about five or six --
five or six days I guess.
Q. Let me back up, Mr. Ray, a moment.
A. Yeah.
Q. When you went outside and you talked to
Raul --
A. Yes.
Q. -- how long did you stay out there with
him?
A. Oh, we was just walking down the
street. It wasn't very long.
Q. And he was driving a car?
A. If he was --
Q. Okay. You don't know how he left the
area?
A. No, I have no idea.
Q. And you left in your Plymouth?
A. No, I walked down there.
Q. Well, did you have a room at a hotel or
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a rooming hall or something at that point?
A. Yes. I was living in south Montreal,
in the Ajax Apartments. I think it was about
4800 South Notre Dame Street was the name of
the street.
Q. Did you -- how were you financing this?
Where were you getting your money from then?
A. Well, I had two hundred fifty dollars
when I escaped from prison. I worked in the
restaurant a while and I had held up a brothel
for sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars. So I
don't know just exactly how much money I had,
but I had -- I wasn't really uptight for money.
Q. This brothel, was that before you met
Raul that you held it up?
A. Yes. That's the -- well, I had set it
up when I was in Dorion, the day before I went
to Montreal. I went up there that night, and I
met some woman at a bar and I went home with
her and I went to her apartment. And, you
know, I found out her address and the next day
I met her again.
Q. Okay. And you had gone to some man
that was sending business to her or her pimp I
guess, is that what he was?
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A. He was in the building, yes.
Q. Okay. And you had robbed him of how
much, sixteen or seventeen hundred dollars?
A. It was mixed bills, sixteen or
seventeen hundred dollars in United States and
Canadian currency.
Q. That was in Dorion?
A. No, that was in Montreal.
Q. It was in --
A. Dorion. I drove into Dorion and set it
up, the robbery, and then the next day I moved
into Montreal and rented the apartment. The
Harkay I think is the apartment on Notre Dame
Street. H A R.
MR. BLEDSOE: And then Mr. Pepper
interjects K A Y.
A. K A Y. And then I went ahead and
robbed the place.
Q. Well, you didn't know in advance before
you had gotten to Montreal whether you just --
you were going to do but you didn't know what
place or anything, am I correct?
A. Yes. I was fairly certain I was going
to do it because I was getting very short on
money and usually those places don't -- they
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don't call the police on you anyway.
Q. That's what I'm saying. You were going
to do it but you didn't know what place then
until you got into Montreal?
A. No, I had no idea what place.
Q. Okay. When you had gone to Gray Rocks
and what -- then you had gone to Gray Rocks and
what happened there?
A. Well, as I mentioned, I did meet
some -- a lady up there after I was up there
about five or six days and I -- but I didn't
think that was, you know -- I didn't want to
approach her about something that was illegal
in just that short of time. You know, I
didn't, you know, know her long. So I never
did get into it.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in Gray
Rocks?
A. Six or seven days.
Q. Okay. And then you returned to
Montreal?
A. Yes.
Q. And had you set up an appointment with
Raul at that time to meet him?
A. Yes. I told him I was -- you know, I
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would be back there.
Q. Did he give you a -- any telephone
number to contact him?
A. No. I never had any contact.
Q. How were you going, in other words,
were you going to set up a certain date to meet
him back at the Neptune; is that correct?
A. Yes. I remember one time we met in the
Neptune and then we went on somewhere else. I
think we went to a restaurant but it was not --
Q. Okay. Now, when you met Raul the
third time, he knew then that you were looking
for some -- your term travel papers, am I
correct, sir?
A. Yes. That's correct.
Q. And he never did tell you you would
have to pay him anything to get the travel
papers?
A. No. It was kind of quid pro quo. He
was going to -- sometime during the
conversation he was going to furnish me with
the -- what he called the travel documents and
a certain amount of money and he didn't --
Q. What was he going -- what was he going
to get out of it for doing this?
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A. Well, I was going to take some things
across the border for him in the back seat of
the Plymouth.
Q. He had already asked you that if you
would take -- if you would take some things
across the border, he would help you get in
your term travel papers, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And you agreed to do that?
A. Yes. I was willing to do it, yes.
Q. When you say across the border, where
across the border were you going to take them?
A. Windsor, Canada, that's right across
the river from Detroit.
Q. Okay. When you say some things, you're
talking about some drugs or guns or what?
A. Well, I assumed it was drugs.
Q. And he didn't tell you specifically
what it would be?
A. No, he didn't say.
Q. And you agreed to do that if he would
help you get what you called travel papers,
right?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was on the third visit with
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him?
A. Well, somewhere along there. I can't
remember just what was said on each visit. I
would say we had maybe five visits altogether.
Q. Okay. And then you agreed to do this?
And let me ask you this: Whatever you were
going to take across, did you actually do that?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was it something in boxes, bags or
what?
A. Plastic bags.
Q. Okay. And could you tell what it was
or did you ask what it was or did he tell you
what it was?
A. Well, no, he had me meet him in Windsor
on a certain day. I think it was a train
station -- near the train station. And he came
up. He showed up in time. I was sitting in
the car and he showed up at the meeting and he
just got in the car and directed me to a
different area of Windsor and then he got in
the back of the car.
In the Plymouth you could raise the
back seat up, and it would come unhinged. And
behind the back seat there was a bunch of
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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springs back there, and that's what he did. He
apparently was familiar with the inside of it
and he put some -- I think it was about three
packages. I didn't turn around to look at him,
but I did notice something out of the back, you
know, the rearview mirror.
Q. Okay. Well now, when you met, where
were you when he put this in the back of the
car?
A. I was sitting in the front seat.
Q. But where were you though? Were you in
Montreal or Windsor?
A. We was in Windsor, yes.
Q. All right. And you had had an
agreement to meet him at some place there?
A. Yes. Near -- I think it was near the
train station or bus station. I think it was a
train station.
Q. Okay. And what time of day were you
going to meet him there?
A. It was some time in the afternoon, but
I don't know just exactly what time.
Q. All you were going to do was just drive
it across the border?
A. Yes.
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Q. And into where?
A. Into Detroit.
Q. Okay. And what did you -- what did he
tell you after you drove it across the border
that he would do then?
A. Well, I would take the material across
and then once we got across the border, he
would give me a passport and some money and he
would go his way and I would go my way.
Q. When you met him there, Mr. Ray, was he
driving something or was he walking or just
standing there, was -- what was he in? How did
he get there?
A. I was just sitting in the car and he
walked up and that was it.
Q. And he had something in his hands, some
bags or --
A. He had an attache case, that's all he
had that I saw.
Q. And he -- did he put the case behind
your seat or just open the case up and put
something behind the seat, which was it?
A. No, first he directed me to another
street where he -- and he got in the back of
the car and took the stuff out of the attache
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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case and got the seat up. I'm not talking
about the seat you sit on, I'm talking about
the back rest. And he put it in there and then
we left.
Q. Okay. Had you ever been to Windsor
before?
A. I think I went through there when I
went to Montreal earlier in 1960, 1959 or
whatever.
Q. And then did he get in the car and you
go across the border with him in the car and
with the substance in the back?
A. No. He got in the car and he told me
to let him off before we got to the -- we went
through the tunnel. There is two ways you can
get from Windsor to Detroit. One is the tunnel
and one is the bridge, and he had me let him
off. He asked me to meet him on the other
side. So I let him off and he said give him a
while. I think he got a cab and I assume he
got a cab or somebody hauled him across, and
then I went through the customs and I picked
him up on the other side. And then when I
picked him up, he directed me to a place, some
side street.
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Q. In Detroit?
A. Yes. And then he -- he took this
material out of the back seat and he told me
to -- you know, we was going to do the same
thing again.
Q. Did he tell you when?
A. Pardon?
Q. Did he tell you when?
A. Yes, right then.
Q. Oh, okay. The same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Okay. Well now, did he go back to the
same place where you were originally when he
came up with the attache and put it in the car
and meet him there again at the same place?
A. Did he go back to the same -- you're
talking about --
Q. Let me back up. Okay. You drove the
car alone across the border from Windsor to
Detroit, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And he met you over there?
A. Yes.
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Q. And you said he -- and you said he said
we are going to do the same thing again.
A. Yes.
Q. And did that mean go back to Windsor
and come back across again?
A. Yes.
Q. And my question is, did you go back to
Windsor and meet him again at the same place
that you had met him earlier?
A. No, I don't think -- he would meet me
on the -- he would get a cab or something and
meet me over there.
Q. Well, I'm what saying is, did you go
back to the same place to meet him back in
Windsor to get another --
A. Yes. We went to the same street.
Q. Where you met him earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And then again you went across
the border again and the same thing in the same
manner that you did earlier, right?
A. Yes, I assume the first time was a dry
run so we did the same thing but I -- it was
other problems on the second trip.
Q. What problems did you have?
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A. Well, on this -- on the second time we
went across the bridge instead of the tunnel.
Q. Did he go with you this time?
A. No, he didn't go with me.
Q. Still didn't go with you?
A. No. So -- well, anyway, when I got to
the customs house, I had purchased a TV, a
small TV when I was in Montreal to watch. I
thought I might be up there for a while. But
anyway when I got to the customs house, I
started thinking about the TV and I thought I
better declare it because it's -- I think
there's a tax on it and you have to declare
everything. I think there is a sign up there
that says it.
So anyway I pulled into the customs
house and told them I had a television set I
had purchased in Montreal. They asked me if I
had purchased anything, and so they had me pull
over in a -- they had a place where you can
park there.
Q. Okay. You had Illinois plates on your
car?
A. Yes.
Q. And an Illinois driver's license?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead.
A. Well, anyway I parked there and the
customs agent he started going through the car
and this stuff was in the back, this material
was in the back seat as I mentioned, and he
started going through everything in detail. He
started under the hood and he was all over the
car. When he got back to the back, he started
searching the back and another customs agent
come out and told this first customs agent he
said, I will take over and told him to do
something else.
So when he took over, he terminated
the search and he took me in the office. And I
give him a -- I think it was three or four
dollars as some type of tax for carrying some
things across the border, export tax I guess
you could call it -- I guess you call it. So
then after I left there, then I met Raul on
the other side.
Q. The same place you did before?
A. No, this was on the bridge. The first
time was the tunnel. I met him there and then
he seemed kind of concerned and he --
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Q. What made you think that, that he was
concerned?
A. Well, I had got held up for a while.
Q. I see. The time element?
A. Yes. So he asked me what the hold up
was. I told him I had to pay a tax, and so I
gave him the -- I showed him the receipt and it
was the Rayns name on it. And, of course, I
gave him the Galt name when I first met him,
but he didn't say anything about it. He didn't
seem to -- anyway we drove back on into
Detroit.
Q. He rode with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, at that point had Raul
ever given you any information about where he
was from or his last name or anything at all
about his background?
A. No. He was paying the bills so I never
did make any inquiries about, you know, his
last name or anything.
Q. Now when you say, "paying the bills,"
what bills was he paying?
A. Well, he was paying -- I was an
employee I guess you could call it.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. He had given you some money at that
point?
A. Yes.
Q. How much money had he given you?
A. About sixteen or seventeen hundred
dollars maybe.
Q. And that was for taking this across the
border?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what it was for?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was that -- had he given you that
before you started across the first time or was
that after?
A. No, that was the second time. He
didn't give me nothing the first time.
Q. Okay. All right. And where did you
and Raul go in Detroit? How long did you stay
there?
A. We didn't stay there very long at all.
He -- after he got the material out, he told
me -- he said had had some problems getting the
passport and he said that, you know, he would
get them later. So he just asked me to, you
know -- we -- see, there was a lot of deception
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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going on here. I didn't intend -- if I had got
the passport and the money, I didn't intend to
go to Birmingham or anywhere else. I intended
to go back across, you know, back to Canada.
So anyway when he -- he said he had some
problem getting the passport and he said he
would get it the next time. So I went ahead
and agreed to go to Birmingham. And he
mentioned that I should check -- when I got
there, check the general delivery at the post
office under the name of Eric S. Galt.
Q. Was he going to get you a passport in
Canada or an American passport or did he say?
A. He didn't say. The only thing he ever
mentioned were travel documents, and I didn't
know what they were. As I mentioned,
subsequently I learned they were, you know,
one-way tickets to somewhere.
Q. Okay. When you and Mr. -- when you and
Raul got into Detroit, when was the next time
you saw him after that?
A. The next time I saw him would have been
in Birmingham.
Q. All right. Now at that time, when you
were taking these -- you made the two trips
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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across there, is that when he told you he
wanted you go to Birmingham or had he mentioned
that to you earlier?
A. No, we went through all that in the --
Q. Montreal?
A. Montreal. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what did he tell you he
wanted you to go to Birmingham for?
A. Well, he just said, you know, we can
make some more money and I could get another --
he promised me for certain I would get a
passport if I helped him again, and I don't
know what all the details he gave me. He told
me some things in Birmingham and some things in
Detroit, but I can't differentiate everything
he told me. I know it was just -- he asked me
to come down there and --
Q. He never told you why he wanted you to
go to Birmingham?
A. No. I don't believe he mentioned it.
I assume he mentioned -- I think he mentioned
something about Mexico. I'm not one hundred
percent certain, but I think he mentioned
something about Mexico, and, you know, money,
passports, things of that nature.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. All right. Now, after you were in
Detroit with him, did you go back to Montreal?
A. Did I? No, I went to -- I went to
Chicago and then went from there to Birmingham.
Q. Okay.
A. See I went to Chicago. And he
mentioned, you know, before we went to
Birmingham he was going to get a different car
and things of that nature because the car I
had was a -- it run all right but it was
getting kind of old. So I decided to get rid
of the Plymouth. I gave it to my brother and
then I went on to Birmingham.
Q. Okay. When you were in Gray Rocks, did
you drive this Plymouth to Gray Rocks?
A. Yes, I did. I drove it to Gray Rocks.
Q. Did you actually meet some female
there?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you spend any time with her?
A. Well, I met her there. It was the
last -- probably about five days after I was
there I guess, I saw her -- subsequently I did
see her in -- she came to Montreal on vacation
and I saw her up there sometime in July. Then
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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I saw her again before I met Raul. I
stopped -- I was going to -- about the
passport, you know, I was thinking -- I had
mentioned about -- I was thinking about asking
her again before I met Raul in Windsor, but
she worked for a government agency so I thought
I --
Q. In Montreal?
A. Yes, she worked for -- no, Ottawa. I
met her in Ottawa. She worked for the Canadian
government.
Q. You said you saw her in Montreal.
A. Yes, I saw her three times. Once in
Gray Rocks and then I gave her my address in
Montreal and she just happened to come over
there on some type of vacation. She was up for
a couple of days and the third time I met her
was in Ottawa. Yes, it was either Ottawa or
Toronto.
Q. Did you ever --
A. It must have been Ottawa.
Q. Did you ever go to her home at any
time?
A. No, I never went to her home. No, I
think she was married and divorced and had
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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children.
Q. Okay. When Raul wanted you to go to
Birmingham, did you tell him that you had never
been to Birmingham?
A. When he first approached the subject in
Montreal, I knew Birmingham was bigger than
Mobile, which he wanted me to go to, but I
never did. Did he tell me -- did he ask me if
I had ever been in Birmingham before?
Q. No, sir. You said he mentioned that he
wanted you to go to Birmingham. I am just --
was wondering did you tell him that you had
never been to Birmingham?
A. I don't believe I told him that, no.
It wouldn't have been no reason. I was just
going to check the post office.
Q. Okay. He had given you sixteen or
seventeen hundred dollars?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you had gone to
Chicago. How long did you stay in Chicago?
A. Just about one or -- well, I stayed --
when I left Detroit, I think I stayed in a
motel.
Q. Okay.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Right outside there. I think I stayed
in one motel for -- right outside Alton for a
day. And then I saw my brother, and I think I
stayed there maybe one or two days. I'm not
certain about these things.
Q. Did you drive the Plymouth to
Birmingham?
A. No, I gave that to my brother.
Q. Okay. How did you get to Birmingham?
A. I rode a train.
Q. From Chicago?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Well, when you left Chicago to
go to Birmingham, Mr. Ray, did you have any
idea how long you were going to be there in
Birmingham?
A. Not -- well, not when I went there.
No, I didn't have no -- I assumed it wouldn't
be very long since we was going to make some
type of, you know, run somewhere.
Q. Okay. What about -- excuse me, okay.
About when did you arrive in Birmingham
roughly?
A. I arrived there sometime in --
Q. In 1967 or 1968?
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A. Yes, 1967. It must have been late
August, the 25th or 23rd or 27th.
Q. Now, let me ask you something. Had
Raul given you any telephone number to contact
him if you needed to?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember what city the
telephone number -- was it a Chicago number or
a Montreal number, what city was --
A. No, it was a New Orleans number, yes.
Q. Had you ever been to New Orleans at
that time?
A. Had I ever been to New Orleans?
Q. Right.
A. Yes. I was in -- I was in there one
time when I went to Mexico earlier in 1959.
Had stopped there for one day.
Q. Okay. When you reached Birmingham did
you try to call Raul with this telephone
number he had given you?
A. No, I --
Q. You did not?
A. No.
Q. Okay. How long were you there before
you heard from him?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. It was a very short while because I
went to the -- I don't know just what day it
was. I know I went to the post office and it
was either a Sunday or a Monday and there was
some kind of letter from him. It was -- it was
addressed to Eric S. Galt, general delivery.
Q. Okay. What did the letter say?
A. Well, it just said met him at a bar
called the -- I can't recall the bar right now
but it's right across the street from the post
office.
Q. Okay. Now, when you went to
Birmingham, he didn't tell you why he wanted
you to go there at all?
A. Well, it had something to do with
illegal activities, yes.
Q. Okay.
A. The bar's name was the Spotlight Bar.
MR. BLEDSOE: At which point
Mr. Pepper states Starlight.
A. Starlight Bar, yes.
Q. Okay. You received the letter from him
and he told you to meet him. And how long did
you meet him after you got the letter, how long
was it before you met him?
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A. Well, I'm not certain about that. It
was real close there. It might have been --
see, that place is closed on Sunday I believe.
It was probably a Saturday or a Monday, but it
could have been a Saturday but it wasn't too
long after I got the communication. It wasn't
over a day or two.
THE COURT: Let's stop there. How
much more do you have?
MR. BLEDSOE: I'm on page 95. I
don't know how long the entire deposition is.
THE COURT: You're going to read
the whole thing?
MR. BLEDSOE: I believe so.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, it's
most of it. It's in sequence so we are going
to have to read most of it.
THE COURT: All right. Well,
let's -- we'll stop and resume at 2:15.
(Lunch recess.)
(Jury out.)
THE COURT: Are we ready to
proceed?
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, before
we start I would like to enter a motion on
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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behalf of Mr. Jowers and at this time, if Your
Honor please, the defendant Mr. Jowers would
move for a mistrial on the grounds that he is
under the care of a physician and disabled and
unable to be here. He's on medication where
he's moderately coherent, and he can't be here
to defend himself. He can't be here to offer
testimony in open court.
He was here the first several days.
He became ill during the trial, and on behalf
of Mr. Jowers, based on the statement of the
physician that's been treating him, ask Your
Honor to declare a mistrial.
Your Honor, I might add this is at the
request of the defendant and his family and
another attorney.
THE COURT: Do you have anything
in support of Mr. Jowers' physical condition?
MR. GARRISON: I have the exhibit
we presented this morning.
THE COURT: Let me see that again.
MR. GARRISON: In the statement
the physician says that he's not able to attend
court.
Your Honor, I might add that is the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1835
second physician that has stated he is unable
to attend court. I have the other report, I
don't know if I can find it now, but I have
another physician who will also say the same
thing that's here in Memphis.
THE COURT: I'm not -- let me see,
it says: Judge, Circuit Court, Memphis,
Tennessee. It's dated December 3rd, 1999.
Ross DeBoole, M.D., Reelfoot Medical --
Reelfoot Family Medical Center, 229 South Court
Street, Tiptonville, Tennessee. "Your Honor, I
have examined Mr. Loyd Jowers on December 2nd
and 3rd, 1999, and performed laboratory tests
through Med Lab. Mr. Jowers suffers from
severe cerebral arteriosclerosis, clinically
significant malnutrition, ongoing urinary tract
infection and headache which are probably of
vascular origin for which he is receiving
treatment which will on December 9th, 1999. I
would appreciate your excusing him from
judicial proceedings during this time."
I'm not sure I understand what that
means "which will on December 9th." What does
that mean, Mr. Garrison?
MR. GARRISON: I think it's
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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continued through that date is what I
understand.
THE COURT: You mean his
treatment? It says: "I would appreciate your
excusing him from judicial proceedings during
this time." That's not the same thing as
saying that he is unable to attend and -- I
don't know. I have some question in my mind as
to whether or not the doctor was aware that
he's already involved in judicial proceedings,
that is, a trial. And I don't know whether
Mr. Jowers' condition is serious enough that it
would warrant the interruption of the trial.
He simply says: "I would appreciate your
excusing him from judicial proceedings during
this time."
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, would I
be able to ask the Court to recess long enough
for me to get a little further information from
the doctor so we could determine whether or not
he thinks he is completely disabled and unable
to attend because of the medication he's on
he's not fully aware of what is going on?
MR. PEPPER: May I be heard, Your
Honor?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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THE COURT: Mr. Pepper, yes.
MR. PEPPER: Your Honor,
plaintiffs strongly oppose this motion.
Mr. Jowers was in the court early on in these
proceedings. Plaintiffs would have called him
then, did not do so. We are prepared to call
him at a later time when he was unavailable.
Plaintiffs were then prepared to travel to
Mr. Jowers' home and take his deposition at
this earlier time as well long before the 3rd
of December when he was examined by the
physician.
Plaintiffs received word from counsel,
Mr. Jowers, that if we did so, he would only
plead the Fifth Amendment to any critical
questions that would be asked and that would be
the extent of his defense. He would knowingly
plead the Fifth Amendment.
Plaintiffs at that time did not wish
to waste the Court's time and a day of these
proceedings by traveling up there and elected
not to go and not to depose Mr. Jowers.
Instead plaintiffs inserted into the record a
great deal of relevant information previously
given by Mr. Jowers under oath in a deposition
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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in a prior case, which although the cause of
action was different, dealt nevertheless with
the same facts in issue here.
Plaintiff notes also would ask the
Court -- respectfully ask the Court to consider
the fact that after Mr. Jowers absented himself
from court, he allowed counsel to continue.
And counsel continued with his defense up to
and through the point where plaintiffs have
closed their case.
Now, all of plaintiffs' submissions --
entry of submissions in this action have been
put before the Court and the jury and
plaintiffs' case has been closed. Counsel for
the plaintiffs believes that counsel for the
defense has probably been in touch with
Mr. Jowers on a regular basis reporting as to
what has happened in this courtroom thereby
giving him the opportunity to make any comments
or provide any instructions which he would --
he would want to do even though he has been
outside of the court.
For all of that -- those reasons, and
for the fact that we have come so far in these
proceedings and there is so much evidence here,
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
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Your Honor, we oppose this motion and
respectfully request that these proceedings be
allowed to carry forward to a conclusion. And
if the defendant is unhappy and dissatisfied
with the result, he does have the remedy of
appeal.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, I just
say this in response to that. He was seen by a
physician here in Memphis about the third or
fourth day of the trial, and it appeared at
that time, I have a report somewhere, but that
he probably would be able to return to court in
a day or two. That's the reason it was asked
of Your Honor the first day he was absent to
tell the jury.
His condition has gone steadily down
since then because he had every intention of
being here. He was here the first several
days. And certainly you don't know whether he
takes a pill or what have you, that's his
prerogative and his privilege and his right in
court. And he does have a right to be here.
And he's not here because he's unable to be
here, and I can obtain further medical proof
regarding that issue if the Court would permit
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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me to.
But I think certainly at this point
the Court would have to seriously consider the
motion because the defendant -- because if he
hadn't been here at all, it would be a
different thing. He was here the first few
days, and I think because of his condition that
he has -- was not here because he can't be
here. And I think he has a right to be here to
defend himself however he want to defends
himself. He doesn't have to take the stand at
all if he doesn't want to, but he does have a
right to be here and he's not here because it's
no fault of his.
I think under the circumstances, Your
Honor, the Court should seriously consider
declaring a mistrial of the case. If we need
to get his -- a recess, we can get his
deposition and what have you. I don't know how
long that will be but whatever it takes.
MR. PEPPER: Your Honor, if this
were a defendant who were legitimately
interested in providing evidence under oath to
this Court, and as being denied the opportunity
to do so because of his condition of his
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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health, that would be one thing. But I
respectfully suggest to the Court that this
defendant if he were to take that stand this
afternoon or any other time would in fact
invoke the Fifth Amendment and would not
otherwise characterize his defense.
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, if I
might just say this: He's been present every
time. We spent two days with Mr. Ray taking
his deposition, he was present there. He has
been present when Doctor Pepper took his
deposition. He's been present every proceeding
we've had. It's not that he doesn't have an
interest in defending himself. He has been
present every time. Of course, this is the
first time during the trial he has become ill
and can't be here. Certainly he had the right
to be here, and I -- I think under the rules,
if Your Honor please, as I understand them if
he's unable to be here, the Court would either
have to declare a mistrial or recess the Court
until we can get better information about it.
THE COURT: This morning before
the motion was made, you indicated that the
defendant's proof was complete except for the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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reading of Mr. Ray's deposition. Is there any
additional proof that you know of that would be
presented on behalf of the defendant?
MR. GARRISON: Your Honor, at this
moment I have a subpoena out for another
witness. Whether or not the process server can
get the witness, I'm not sure. If he does,then
we would have another one. If not, well, that
would be -- in fact, Doctor Pepper gave me the
address of the witness this morning and we are
trying to get served. So far I'm not sure if
he's been served.
THE COURT: Well, it was suggested
to me that in spite of his condition and even
after this exhibit was made in the proof --
this exhibit was made a part of the record,
that the defendant was still prosecuting his
case and getting out subpoenas.
MR. GARRISON: That was before I
received this information from you that we
issued the subpoena.
THE COURT: It seems to me that
the suggestion of a mistrial comes a little
late after the plaintiff has continued in spite
of the knowledge that his illness and at the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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request and permission of the defendant the
trial has progressed. And at this point there
is nothing culpable to be presented by the
plaintiff because they have closed their proof,
and the onus is now on the defendant to come
forward, although he has no burden to begin
with. If there is proof to be presented in his
behalf, we have reached that point where he
should do so.
Now, the defendant has made prior
testimony -- statements in this case -- not in
this case but on the issues involved. And at
the time that the statements were made, he was
under oath and his testimony sworn to. So that
if he were to be presented now as a witness, he
could only reaffirm the testimony that he has
previously given. Or if he contradicted it, it
would only nullify his testimony having given
diametrically opposed statements would not
bolster his position here but would simply
nullify all of his testimony. So if there is
any proof from which the defendant can benefit,
it would not be coming from the defendant
himself at this point.
Also the letter that I have here it
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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does not unequivocally state that the defendant
is unable to attend but simply requests that he
be excused. For all of the reasons I have
stated, I'm going to deny the motion at this
time. We are going to proceed.
MR. PEPPER: All right.
THE COURT: Bring the jury out
please, sheriff.
(Jury in.)
THE COURT: All right. Are we
ready to proceed?
MR. GARRISON: Yes, sir, we are
ready to resume with the reading of the
deposition of James Earl Ray.
THE COURT: All right, sir.
(Whereupon, the following is the
continuation of the reading of the deposition
transcript of James Earl Ray.)
Q. Okay. And when you met him at this
Starlight Bar, was he driving anything, was he
with anyone else or tell me about it?
A. No. As far as I know, he wasn't
driving anything. I just met him at the
Starlight and --
Q. Did you get there first or did he get
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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there first?
A. I got there first.
Q. All right. Now, when you saw him at
the Starlight Bar, what did he tell you then he
wanted you to do?
A. Well, he had quite a few things to do.
I'm not certain the sequence he wanted to do
it. He wanted to purchase a car and he also
wanted to buy some sophisticated photographic
equipment. And then I don't know just what
he -- what he -- all he went into that day and
what he went into the next day. But we just
had -- he just had -- generally that first
meeting I think was just to see if I was okay
and was ready to do what he wanted to do.
Q. At that point you still didn't know his
last name?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And you didn't know where he was from
or anything about his background?
A. I didn't know anything, no.
Q. How long did you stay in the Starlight
Bar when you met him there?
A. The first time?
Q. Yes, sir.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. It wasn't very --
Q. After you got the letter.
A. Yes. It wasn't very long because he
had me -- I think it was -- I believe it
was getting -- it was getting along close to
evening. It was a little later than we usually
met.
Q. Okay. Now he gave you some money then,
did he?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. He didn't? Okay. He wanted you to
purchase a car?
A. Yes.
Q. And some from photographing equipment?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he tell you he wanted with
the photographing equipment?
A. Well, he didn't tell me. He just told
me what he wanted.
Q. What type of photographing equipment
did he want?
A. I don't know. It was just wrote down.
I didn't -- when I -- subsequently when I went
to buy it, I think I showed the clerk, you
know, what I wanted.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. Did you go straight that day and
get it?
A. No, no. I didn't have the money at
that time.
Q. How long was it before you purchased
the photographic equipment?
A. Well, subsequently we had another
meeting and then he started to look for a car.
And he had to me look for a car and he stayed
around there somewhere. I don't know where he
stayed at. But anyway it took me two or three
days to locate a car.
Q. Where were you staying?
A. I was staying at 2800 -- 20 something
Highland Avenue in Birmingham.
Q. Is that a rooming house?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you meet him in Nashville, was
that the next day or the next two or three days
or --
A. After I got there?
Q. Yes, sir. After you met him the first
time at the Starlight.
A. I am not certain it was the next day.
Q. Okay. Did you met him in the Starlight
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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the next time again, the same place?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And again, you don't know
how he got there, whether he walked up, drove
up or someone brought him to the Starlight?
A. No. I was usually -- I know whenever
he had a meet -- we had a meeting I was usually
always the first one there.
Q. Now he had given you a note to purchase
some photographing equipment and then the
second time you saw him did he give you some
money to purchase it with?
A. Well, I think the first time we
purchased the car when I found the Mustang and
I don't know if you want to go into all the
details how I found it, but anyway I got it.
He had agreed to -- I told him what kind it was
and everything. So he agreed to purchase it
and then he gave me the money to purchase it
with. And I went down and purchased the car.
And then after I got it, after I got the car, I
drove back to the Starlight, picked him up and
then we went to Highland Avenue and we parked
out there near the rooming house and that's
when he went into the photographing equipment
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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and what all he wanted me to do.
And I think he -- I can't recall just
how much money he gave me now to -- the Mustang
cost about nineteen hundred dollars. He paid
for that. Then he gave me some more money, and
I have got all this stuff wrote down somewhere.
I think it was -- I am not certain just how
much it was. I think the photographing
equipment come to about five hundred dollars
but he gave me some extra money anyway.
Q. When he gave you the sixteen or
seventeen hundred dollars in Montreal, was that
in large bills or small bills or what?
A. It was sort of small bills, twenty
dollar bills and it was mixed currency. It was
United States and --
Q. Now, Mr. Ray, when he gave you the
money to purchase the car and the photographing
equipment, was that large bills or small bills
or what?
A. I can't -- I think -- I think the
Mustang, I'm not certain. I think it must have
been some rather large bills because they would
have, you know, been kind of bulky. I can't
remember just what all the denominations was.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Probably the person that I bought it from might
remember.
Q. At that point did he tell you what he
wanted you to do, why he wanted the
photographing equipment or any job he asked you
to do or any reason he wanted you to buy a car?
A. Well, yes. He went through that we was
going to Mexico and I was going to -- we was
going to make some type of --
Q. When were you going to Mexico?
A. Well, there was no specific date. It
was about -- I think it was about 30 days and I
think he subsequently -- the date was set up,
but it was about 30 days. I think it was
sometime -- I was supposed to meet him sometime
in early October and -- or let's see, yes,
early October and we went to Mexico.
Q. Did you still have your driver's
license at that point, the same driver's
license?
A. The Rayns?
Q. In Illinois.
A. No. While I was in Birmingham I -- the
landlord at the apartment I stayed in, a guy
named Peter Cherpes, C H E R P E S, he went
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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down to the state highway patrol and he drove
the car down. So they gave me a driver's test
and I got a driver's license.
Q. In Alabama?
A. In the Galt name, yes.
Q. Eric Galt?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't have the Mustang at that
point though, did you, when you got your
driver's license?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You had already purchased it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You purchased the Mustang
through an ad, is that the way you purchased
it? How did you find out about it?
A. I believe it was the want ad, yes.
Q. You called some man that had the
Mustang for sale and you asked him about it and
you went out to see it?
A. Yes. I went -- you have less problems,
you know, with police and things. Yes, I
got -- he told me where he was at.
Q. How did you get out to where he was?
A. Well, I probably took a taxi out there.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. And that was at his home, the
person who you purchased the car from's home?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you -- when you arrived at
his home, did you drive the car, the Mustang?
A. No, I didn't drive the car. I told him
I didn't have no driver's license, and I think
his -- he drove me around in it and --
Q. What model Mustang was that?
A. I believe it was a 1966 or 1967.
Q. And what color was it?
A. It was sort of a whitish.
Q. Okay. Then did you decide then to buy
it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did he owe any money on the car?
A. No.
Q. And you paid him in cash; is that
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And he gave you a receipt?
A. I believe he -- yes, I believe he did.
Yes.
Q. And then how did you leave?
A. I drove it.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Where did you drive it to?
A. Well, I went to -- I went to the
Starlight to pick up Raul and then from there
we went back to the Highland Avenue apartment.
Q. How did you know he was going to be at
the Starlight?
A. Well, he gave me the money there and he
told me to meet him there after I got the car.
Q. You told him you were going to go look
at the car?
A. Yes. I told him I was going to
purchase it, yes.
Q. Did you and Raul go for a ride in the
car?
A. No. I can't remember all the sequence,
how I bought the car, but he didn't go for no
ride with me. I think I told him I didn't have
a driver's license and I think that concerned
him. But we went up there and parked in the --
the Highland Avenue and so I think that was the
extent of our driving around.
Q. And then you had gotten your driver's
license pretty soon after that I gather?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. When did you see Raul
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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again after that, after this time where the two
of you rode in your car?
A. I saw him at a motel in Nuevo Laredo,
Mexico.
Q. Now, I gather you had planned that
night or the day you saw him with the Mustang
to go, is that correct, you had planned then to
go to Mexico?
A. After we purchased the Mustang?
Q. Right.
A. Yes. He explained everything to me
after we went back to the Highland Avenue
apartment.
Q. What did he explain to you?
A. He told me he wanted the camera
equipment. I think he gave me some money
there. I guess it was a thousand dollars I
would estimate, but I think the camera
equipment cost about five hundred dollars or
something. He may have given me more, but I
just can't recall just exactly.
Q. Where did you purchase the camera
equipment?
A. Well, I purchased some of it at the --
in downtown Birmingham. I just showed the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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lady, you know, what I wanted. Some of it they
didn't have on hand. I guess it was some
specialized equipment. They had to order it
from Chicago but --
Q. So you had to wait until they ordered
it and get another date?
A. Yes. I never did get it. I called up
Raul's contact. He had a contact in New
Orleans, and I called him up and told him that
I was having problems, you know, getting one of
the items he wanted. And the contact said,
well, just forget it and come down here for a
certain -- and come down here a certain date,
and so I never did get the -- I don't believe I
ever did get the camera.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, did you have more than
one number to contact Raul or did he only give
you one number to call him in New Orleans?
A. He gave me -- let's see, I had two
numbers altogether.
Q. All right.
A. In fact, I had three. I had one in
Baton Rouge. I got that later, but --
Q. Were these numbers written down on
something or did you just memorize them or how
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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did you know to call, what numbers? How did
you know to call these numbers?
A. I never wrote -- I usually write stuff
down backwards so if the police stops you or
something.
Q. How long did you keep those numbers?
A. Well, the first number he had me throw
it away when we was in Mexico. He said he had
a new number. That's when I took his -- this
material across the border in Mexico in October
of 1967. And then he gave me a -- then I
also -- yes. And then when we was in
Birmingham, I think I was still using the first
number, but he also gave me a backup number in
Baton Rouge.
Q. How long did you keep those numbers?
A. I don't think I kept them too long. I
kept the last one he gave me in Mexico. I
think I kept it until sometime in, you know,
1968.
Q. Did you -- do you still have the
number -- the number of when you were arrested
in London?
A. Do I still have the telephone numbers?
Q. Uh-huh.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. The --
Q. Any of these numbers.
A. Yes. I remember the last four digits
of the New Orleans telephone number.
Q. Okay. Did you ever furnish those to
any lawyer that represented you?
A. Yes, they're on file in court, yes.
Q. Okay. You met Raul then in Laredo
next?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And what did you do there?
A. I met him in a motel. I was supposed
to be there, and I -- I was supposed to meet
him at a certain time there in a motel. I
can't think of the name of it. It's on a main
street. Going into Laredo it's on the
left-hand side of the street going south, and
the motel when you have to drive up, it's sort
of an incline for 40 or 50 feet and then you
turn left. And subsequently you can't see any
cars or anything from the street. So I
rented -- I checked in there under the name
Eric Galt. And after I was there about, I
don't know, thirty minutes or so, then Raul he
showed up and --
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. He told you where to check in or he
knew where you were going to be?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And when he came that time, was
he riding in something or did someone bring him
or how did he get there?
A. Pardon?
Q. Was he riding in something, did someone
bring him, how did he get there?
A. He just showed up at the door and that
was it. I don't know how he got there. I got
the address in New Orleans. See, initially I
was supposed to meet him in New Orleans, but
when I got there, his contact said he was gone
and he gave me a place to meet in Nuevo Laredo.
I should have mentioned that earlier but all
these details.
But anyway, when he got there in the
motel in Nuevo Laredo we just had a sort of
brief conversation and he told me that he
wanted me to get a visa. See, when you come
into Mexico and go in border towns, you don't
need no visa. He wanted me to get a visa, and
he also wanted me to go across the border and
pick up some material.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. And you had an Alabama driver's license
at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Go ahead.
A. So anyway we left and we crossed then
back into Laredo which is right across the
bridge, and I think we went about maybe seven
or eight blocks north and then we turned right
and went west for a couple of miles. This is
my estimation, and he parked behind a car and
then there was some dude sitting in the car
and --
Q. Wait a minute. Now, what was he
driving?
A. He wasn't driving anything.
Q. You said he parked behind a car.
A. Well, we parked behind a car. I was
driving.
Q. I got you.
A. So he got out of the car and apparently
he had -- see, I gave him a set of keys to the
Mustang. The owner gave me two sets, and I
gave him one of them in Birmingham anyway.
Q. This was in Laredo we are talking
about?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes. We are in Laredo now.
Q. Okay. Let me back up just a minute.
You had gone -- you had gone from Birmingham to
Laredo straight. In other words, you hadn't
gone any place, you hadn't veered off any other
place?
A. Yes, I veered off in -- I stopped -- I
stopped briefly. I didn't veer off. I stopped
briefly in the -- somewhere in northern
Louisiana I think it was or Mississippi.
Q. Okay.
A. I had purchased a .38 caliber revolver
and some shells.
Q. Okay. What had you done with your
other .38 caliber?
A. Yes, after I left the -- left Montreal
or Ottawa I was concerned about maybe, you
know, the police arresting with me a .38 and I
buried it by -- I went down the side street and
I buried it under a -- I think it was -- beside
a telephone pole.
Q. In Montreal?
A. No, no, on the highway.
Q. Okay. Somewhere between Montreal and
Birmingham?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. No, somewhere between Montreal and
Windsor, Canada.
Q. Okay.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, when he came to Laredo and met you
there, he just wanted to you go somewhere, you
didn't know why you were going or where you
were going, he just said, let's go somewhere?
A. He told me what we was going to do. We
was going to -- we was going across the border
and then we was going to put some stuff in the
tire and then I -- we exchanged tires.
Q. You're talking about drugs?
A. I don't know what they was.
Q. He didn't tell you what it was?
A. No. It was just in the tires is all I
know.
Q. You mean in the tires on the car or on
the spare or what?
A. The spare tire.
Q. And you said he stopped somewhere and
you pulled up behind some other people in
another car?
A. Yes. There was another car there.
Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. And what happened then?
A. Well, he just got out and took the
spare tire out of the car in front of me and
then got the spare tire out of the back of my
car and we -- that was it. He just changed the
tires and then we went back across the border.
Q. And where did you go across the border?
A. Well, when we crossed the border and we
went to the customs house, he told me he wanted
me to get a visa. And he also told me when I
checked into the -- to get the visa to give
each one of the individuals that searched the
car a dollar. He said not to give them no
more.
So I went into the office and while I
was making out forms for the visa, I parked the
car in the back and when I came -- when I got
the visa form filled out, I went in the back
and there was three Mexican customs officials
in the back and I gave each one of them a
dollar and they didn't hardly shake the car
down. They took the chalk mark and marked
everything with an X and that was it.
Q. Okay. You pulled up behind a car. Did
it have some other individuals in it, the car
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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you pulled up behind?
A. Yes. It had one in the driver's seat,
yes.
Q. Was that a man or a woman?
A. It was a man.
Q. Did it appear to be someone Spanish or
could you tell?
A. I just seen the back of them. I just,
you know --
Q. What time of day are we looking at?
A. It was after dark.
Q. It was after dark?
A. Evening, yes.
Q. What kind of car did he have?
A. I really don't know. I had been in
jail. I didn't know one car from another
really.
Q. Mr. Ray, at that point had you ever
owned any type of rifle up until this point
when you got into Laredo?
A. Did I ever own a rifle?
Q. Right.
A. No. I never -- probably when I was ten
or twelve years old I used to, you know, hunt
with a rifle, a .22 rifle.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. .22 single shot?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the only rifle you had ever
owned?
A. Yes, that wasn't mine. That was my
father's.
Q. Okay. You purchased a rifle in
Birmingham, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you took it back and exchanged it
for another rifle, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you left Birmingham heading
towards Memphis; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And did you have any
ammunition with the rifle?
A. Yes, I purchased some ammunition at
the -- at the --
Q. Store down in Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever handled a rifle such as
this previously either in the military service
or any place? Had you ever had any rifle like
this in your hands previously?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. When I was in the infantry, you had to
qualify with what they call M-1 rifle.
Q. Did they -- did you have some training
to fire an M-1 rifle in the service?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. On the way from Birmingham
to Memphis did you stop and fire that rifle in
a rural area?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You did not?
A. No.
Q. You never told anyone you did that?
A. Did I --
Q. Have you ever told anyone you stopped
and fired the rifle on the way from -- around
Florence, Alabama?
A. No, I never told anyone that.
Q. You have never written anyone and told
them that in writing?
A. No.
Q. You're sure now?
A. No, I never did fire it and I have
never told anyone that. I think William
Bradford Huie, he's a book writer, said I told
my lawyer that. He has written an article
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1866
saying that I fired the rifle, but the attorney
representing me at that time -- see, everything
I told Huie I wrote down on paper because I
never had no direct meeting with him. I think
he said Arthur Haynes said that I shot the
rifle somewhere along the road but Haynes has
denied it. So it's --
Q. So you did not fire the rifle?
A. No, I never did fire the rifle.
Q. Okay.
MR. BLEDSOE: And then Mr. Pepper
states Huie is H U I E.
Q. Now, we are in Laredo and you go across
the border again. Was this something -- was
this something in an attache case or something
like that and you did the same thing as you did
up in Windsor?
A. No. There was no attache case
involved. It was just the one tire.
Q. The spare?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You don't know what it was, of
course, he didn't tell you?
A. No.
Q. Okay. You drove across and you stopped
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1867
to get a visa, did you have any problems with
that?
A. No. I didn't have no problems with
that.
Q. Where did you go in Mexico?
A. After I got the visa?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Well, me and him went back to the motel
and we went kind of a circuitous route. He
directed me around, you know, the side streets.
We didn't go right straight down the Main
Street where the motel was.
Q. But you had gotten the visa and you
didn't go across the border then, you came back
to the motel?
A. Yes. I think we had picked up a tire
and we went back to the motel that I checked
into.
Q. You had gotten the visa and had it with
you?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. You went to the motel and then
where did you go from there?
A. Well, when I got to the motel, there
was an individual. We parked on the right-hand
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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side of the street and there was an individual
in the car parked on the other side of the
street kind of blocking off the tram way that
led up to the motel. And so we had a brief
conversation there at the time, me and Raul.
And he told me he wanted to -- he would be back
in the morning and to, you know -- he would
meet me there in the morning.
And then he got the -- he got the tire
out of the car and I think apparently put it in
the other car, and then I -- I left, you know.
I wanted to get out of there. I didn't want
to -- in other words, I wanted to leave. I
didn't want to watch them and things of that
nature.
Q. When you were in Birmingham the time --
A. Yes.
Q. You stayed, what would you do all day
long, how would you spend your time?
A. When I was in Birmingham, I wouldn't do
too much of anything. I would, you know, just
walk around or something like that or take care
of running errands or trying to get
photographing equipment, that's about it.
Q. Had you become acquainted with anyone
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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there, any females?
A. No. I didn't.
Q. All right. You're in Laredo and you
had gone back to the motel and what happened
next after that?
A. You're talking about Laredo? Now
after I --
Q. You had gone to get a visa and you and
Raul went back to the motel and you said you
had gone some place and someone exchanged
something and what after --
A. Now, after he changed -- he got the
tire apparently, the tire out of the back of my
car, he mentioned he wanted me to meet him
there at a certain time in the morning, at
eight or nine o'clock, I forgot which time it
was. So I drove on off and so I don't know
what happened to them. But this other guy was
sitting in the driver's seat. I don't know
whether he could drive or -- I just don't know
what happened after that.
Q. Okay. Well, where did you wind up next
after that?
A. Well, after -- I drove -- I guess I
drove about a mile and then I come back and
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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they were going -- and I drove in the motel and
I just checked in and went to sleep and got up
the next morning and waited for them.
Q. Okay. How long did you stay in Laredo?
A. Well, just that over night there. That
was it.
Q. And where did you go -- where did you
go after that, after you left Laredo?
A. Well, the next morning he showed up and
he parked in there, I think he backed in.
Q. He was driving this time, you're
talking about Raul?
A. No, he wasn't driving, someone else was
driving the car.
Q. He was with somebody else?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What kind of car was it, do you
have any idea?
A. I don't have no idea. It was a
Chevrolet or a dark car.
Q. Was the person with him a man or a
woman?
A. A man.
Q. Okay. Was it daylight or dark?
A. It was daylight, yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. And this person that was with him, was
that someone that appeared to be Spanish, light
complected, could you tell anything?
A. He appeared to be Spanish, dark
complected. I didn't pay all that much
attention to him.
Q. Just the two of them in the car?
A. Yes.
Q. And Raul got out I guess and what
happened?
A. Well, he switched the tires back again.
He put the one that -- that he got in the
United States side, he put it back in the car
and got another one out and put it in his car.
Q. And then what happened?
A. Pardon?
Q. What happened after that?
A. Well, he just left. He told me that,
you know, he was going to -- going on the other
side of the customs. There was a customs house
about 50 kilometers inside of Mexico. And so
we just started, you know, driving towards the
customs house and --
Q. Did you cross the border?
A. No, we didn't go across the border. We
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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was going into the interior of Mexico at that
time.
Q. Okay. Well, did you go somewhere else
to another hotel or some place to stay a while
after you left?
A. No. We went straight -- this was about
nine o'clock in the evening. We went towards
the interior of Mexico.
Q. And did you go some place to Mexico?
Where did you stay after you left Laredo?
A. That morning at nine o'clock?
Q. Any time.
A. Well, we didn't stay anywhere. We
started driving into the interior of Mexico
after about 35 miles, 30 miles, we came to a
customs house and I pulled into the customs and
the customs officer came out there and he
looked at the front of my car and asked me if I
was a United States citizen, and I said, yes,
and he waved me on through. And while Raul he
was -- he was on the other side there,
apparently he got held up for some reason. I
don't know what the reason was and --
Q. He was not with you when you crossed;
he was not in your car?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. No, he wasn't.
Q. He was in this other person's car?
A. The other person's car.
Q. Okay. Where did you wind up then?
A. Well, anyway after he -- after he
apparently got held up, I pulled out and drove
sort of slow for about four or five miles
waiting until he could catch up with me, you
know, if he got out of there. So he caught up
with me after several miles and pulled over in
front of me and we stopped. And he got out of
his car and come back and got in my car and we
had a conversation.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, have you ever given a
deposition before this time?
A. About what, other matters?
Q. About any subject matter before?
A. Yeah, I have given depositions in
prison cases, and one of the libel depositions.
Yes, I have given several depositions, yes.
Q. Have you ever testified in any court
about what you're telling me today, the same --
essentially the same subject?
A. Yes. I have testified in Congressional
hearings and all that, and I don't know if I
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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have testified in courts or not, but I have
testified under oath in depositions.
Q. Where you gave the same type
information you're giving me today, right?
A. Generally. I mean, I can't account for
every minute and things of that nature but --
Q. After you crossed the border, did you
go back to Laredo then after this time?
A. No. Once we got to -- once we crossed
the border from Laredo back into the United
States with the tire, we picked up -- we never
did go back to --
Q. Laredo?
A. The United States. No, we went
straight into the interior of Mexico.
Q. Okay. Where did you go in Mexico?
A. Well, we went to the customs house as I
mentioned, and then after -- after he was held
up briefly there or maybe a little longer than
briefly, after he caught up with me, which was
several miles down the road, three or four or
five, he pulled over in front of me and he got
out and, you know, got in the Mustang. I
pulled over to the side of the road.
Q. Okay. Did you go then to some city in
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Mexico where you spent some time?
A. No, I didn't. No. He just told me
that he wanted me to -- what he wanted me to do
and he gave me two thousand dollars and he told
me that -- he gave me another story about the
passport. And at that time I more or less gave
up on the passport.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Well, he just -- he took off. I don't
know where he went. I went to --
Q. He left with this other -- same other
person that brought him?
A. Yes. He told me -- what he told me, he
told me he came -- he said he was going to
write to the general delivery, and I told him I
was going to Los Angeles probably, and he would
write me a general delivery in Los Angeles.
And then after financial transactions and the
photographing equipment, I had it, and he said,
just keep it, he didn't want it at that time
and after that he left.
Q. Had there been any mention of any guns
at that time, to purchase any guns?
A. Not -- I don't believe -- I don't
believe -- no. I think that came later on.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. All right. Then did you then go to Los
Angeles?
A. I subsequently went to Los Angeles,
yes.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. I went there in November, I believe,
about November. The middle of November of
1967.
Q. 1967?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is this the time when you
attended the bartending school?
A. Yes, I did attend the bartending school
there.
Q. All right. Mr. Ray, did you become
acquainted with some people in Los Angeles that
you had never known before while you were out
there?
A. Yes. I became acquainted with one
individual.
Q. What was that individual's name?
A. Her name was Marie Martin.
Q. M A R T I N?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you then transport some
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individuals to New Orleans while you were in
Los Angeles?
A. Yes. I -- Raul had contacted me
and -- initially I wasn't going to get involved
with it any more but he wrote me a general
delivery at the main post office and he asked
me to contact him or something. I called him
at New Orleans and he wanted to see me a
certain date, an approximate certain date, and
I did agree to go to New Orleans and I went
down there with an individual named Charles
Stein. He helped me drive down there.
Q. Okay. S T E I N?
A. S T E I N, yes.
Q. And did some other -- were there other
individuals that accompanied you and Mr. Stein?
A. Not on the way down. On the way back
there was two young girls, five or six years
old, they came back with us.
Q. Was there some time in Los Angeles that
you were out there -- let me back up a minute.
You were out there you said about October of
1967 or November.
A. November.
Q. 1967. Now, were you ever back in Los
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Angeles after that?
A. After November?
Q. Right.
A. Yes. I stayed there until March, yes.
Q. Okay. So you stayed in Los Angeles
from November until March.
A. Yes.
Q. During that time you were there, did
you -- did you suggest or direct some
individuals to go and register to vote and that
they would support Governor Wallace for
president?
A. No, no, that's not correct. That's
sort of a --
Q. That's not true?
A. No. The way that transpired was that
Marie Martin's husband was in the -- apparently
was in San Quentin on a drug charge and she was
interested in getting involved in politics and
trying to get her, you know, brother out of the
penitentiary. So anyway I may have mentioned
to her -- I had been down there on Lackershime
Street in Hollywood. I think it's in North
Hollywood, California. Well, it's -- it is
somewhere down there, I know it's on
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Lackershime Boulevard, and I went down there
and purchased a tire for the Mustang and I
noticed the registration place. I assumed it
was for anyone who wanted to register to vote.
So anyway she mentioned this to me,
and I told her that, you know, I would take her
down there if she wanted to register. So the
day that I was going to take her down there,
she had two individuals with her named Charles
Stein, that's the first time I saw Charles
Stein, and she had another young lady with her
and I don't know what her name was, but they
were related. So I took her out there and she
was -- apparently she registered for George
Wallace.
So subsequently she kept -- you know,
she brought up the subject several times again,
and I told her at that time that the problem --
if she was interested in getting in politics,
she should have registered with the Republicans
because they controlled the state. I think
Governor Reagan was governor at that time. So
she went and re-registered then for the
Republicans and she showed me her registration
slip. She was all enthusiastic about this
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idea, but I never was -- I never thought much
of it. I was just going along with her
because, I mean, she couldn't have -- she was a
barmaid, and I imagine if she raised about five
hundred dollars she wasn't seeing the governor
with five hundred dollars. She would have
probably got, you know, locked up or something
like that for some nonsense.
Q. Were you ever in Selma, Alabama,
Mr. Ray?
A. I have been through there one time,
yes.
Q. All right. Weren't you there at the
same time that Doctor King was there, the time
you were there, wasn't he there, too?
A. If he was there, I wouldn't have knew
about it, but I -- subsequently I found out
that he wasn't there when I was there.
Q. How did you find out about that?
A. I think William Bradford Huie, the
writer we previously mentioned, said I was in
Selma when Doctor King was there but later on I
find out that wasn't true and I wasn't in
there. I just drove through there. I wasn't,
you know, a resident there.
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Q. Let me ask you this: Isn't it true
that a map was found with your fingerprints on
it that had Doctor King's home, his church, his
place of meeting, all that was circled, wasn't
that all found?
A. No, that's not true. There was a map
found in the rooming house that I was in in
Atlanta, Georgia. In fact, I had about 20
maps. I had marked some different maps. What
I did I marked the street I was living on and
the street I came in on and then I marked
Peachtree Street which is right off the street
I was living on. And of course that was
distorted and said that I had Reverend King's
house and church and residences and I had all
circles around it. Well, we subsequently found
out that wasn't true, which I knew it wasn't.
Q. You're saying that's not true. That
the map that the FBI had with your fingerprints
on it did not have any circles around the exact
place where Doctor Martin King's church, his
home and his meeting place were, is that what
you're saying?
A. Yes. What I did I made three oblong
circles on there as I recall. Now --
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Q. Go ahead, I'm sorry.
A. One was first, when I usually go into a
large town I usually buy a map to try to get my
bearings with me and find out where I'm at and
things of that nature. And I put the street
where I thought we had come in on and then I
put an oblong circle around Peachtree Street
and one around where I was living at.
And I had put an X down at an area
which is a restaurant I had went to, and I
don't think any -- I think maybe one of them
had enclosed Reverend King's house or
something. But the map, I have seen a copy of
the map, and there is no, you know, circles
around his house.
Q. Did you know where Doctor King's church
was located?
A. I had no idea.
Q. Do you know where his home was located?
A. No.
Q. How long had you had this map?
A. I had purchased it as soon as I had
arrived in Atlanta.
Q. Okay. When you were in Los Angeles
where were you staying, what motel or hotel
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were you staying in?
A. I was staying in an apartment house on
Serrano Boulevard.
Q. Did you leave Los Angeles from November
until March to go on a -- any other trip except
New Orleans while you were out there?
A. Yes. I went to New Orleans in December
and then a lot of things happened in February
and in March. Initially when we -- when I met
Raul in December, he said we would take some
guns into Mexico in that spring or early --
initially the date was set for April. But he
set the date up for March and consequently I
had to do quite a few changes there before I
could --
Q. Where did you go except New Orleans
when you left Los Angeles during this time, did
you go to any other city?
A. I went to Las Vegas, yes, once and that
was it.
Q. Now, you said you met Raul. Was that
in Los Angeles or was that in New Orleans? I'm
talking about from November until March when
you said you were in Los Angeles.
A. Yes, I met him in March, yes.
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Q. You had not seen him in New Orleans
when you were there?
A. Yes, I had met him there.
Q. Where did you meet him there?
A. A place called the Le Bunny Lounge on
Canal Street.
Q. Did you call him ahead of time? Had
you told him you were coming?
A. No, I -- when I got to -- yes, he knew
I was coming because he told me, and I had made
some phone call or I wrote him -- one time I
wrote him a letter and I think he wrote me a
letter. But I don't recall details. But I
think most of our transactions were made on the
phone, and he had me meet him there a certain
date in New Orleans in March of 1968.
Q. Okay. When you went with Mr. Stein,
what month was that?
A. That would have been in November. That
would have been -- wait a minute, that would
have been December.
Q. December of 1967?
A. 1967, yes.
Q. Did you see Raul then?
A. Yes.
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Q. Okay. Where did you meet him then?
A. Le Bunny Lounge.
Q. Okay. Same place?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you stay in New Orleans
when you were down there?
A. Really not very long. As soon as I
seen him, I was ready to leave.
Q. Did you get -- did he give you any
money?
A. He gave me five hundred dollars, yes.
Q. Did he tell you he had any job he
wanted you to do or anything?
A. Yes. He explained in general terms.
Q. What was that?
A. Well, he was going to take some weapons
into Mexico.
Q. When did he tell you he wanted you to
do that?
A. It was something mentioned, I don't
know just what it was about, about we was going
to do this in April of 1968 or he might have
mentioned it later on the phone, his associate.
Q. When you were in New Orleans in
December, are we talking about three or four
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days, a week, two weeks, what?
A. That I was there?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. It couldn't have been more than two or
three days because I was ready to leave the
next day. Stein wanted to stay a couple of
extra days so I think we stayed probably two or
three days.
Q. Okay. The next time you saw Raul was
in March after that?
A. Yes, March.
Q. Mr. Ray, have you ever heard of an
individual named J. C. Hardin?
A. J. C. Hardin?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I believe I have heard of someone named
Hardin, yes.
Q. Where did you hear that?
A. I think someone mentioned it to me
named Harold Wiseberg.
Q. What did Mr. Wiseberg tell you about
him?
A. I guess there's so much of this
information I can't get it all down. I think
Wiseberg said that I met him in Los Angeles.
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Q. Did you meet him in Los Angeles?
A. No, I didn't. I don't --
Q. Have you ever met a J. C. Hardin or
James Hardin?
A. No.
Q. You have never met him?
A. No. The reason I know that -- I didn't
meet anyone in New Orleans so -- I mean, Los
Angeles except the individuals I have done
mentioned.
Q. Okay. Okay. You stayed in Los Angeles
until March of 1968?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you meet Raul next after
that after seeing him in New Orleans in
December, when and where did you meet him next?
A. Well, in one of the phone -- well, in
one of the phone conversations, I was supposed
to meet him in New Orleans on a certain day.
When I got there, he wasn't there.
Q. And about when was that? About what
month was that we're talking about?
A. Well, this would have been March,
sometime in the latter part of March.
Q. And in between December and March, had
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you had any contact with him?
A. Yes, I had contact with him.
Q. By telephone?
A. Yes. And plus in December meeting with
him in New Orleans.
Q. Now, in December when you met him in
New Orleans, you met him at the Le Bunny
Lounge, how long were you with him that time?
A. Not very long, 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. And you didn't see him any more except
that one time while you were in New Orleans?
A. Just that one time, yes.
Q. You had talked to him on the telephone
sometime after December of 1967?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And where did he tell you
he was going to meet you?
A. I didn't talk to him directly. I
talked to the intermediary. I was doing
certain things out there in the -- I was trying
to get a passport, Merchant Seaman's paper and
all that stuff. And I can't remember all the
sequences what happened on certain days. But
anyway the gist of it is that we made -- he set
the date up where I was supposed to meet him in
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New Orleans. It was sometime in March of 1968
and --
Q. You were in Los Angeles from November
until March?
A. Yes.
Q. How were you getting financing?
A. Well, I went down in December, I told
him I was getting kind of low on money and he
gave me five hundred dollars. Plus I also
got -- he give me two thousand dollars in
Mexico, so I didn't have a whole lot of money
but, you know, I wasn't missing any meals or
anything like that.
Q. Well, at some point you had some
plastic surgery.
A. Yes.
Q. In Los Angeles.
A. Yes.
Q. What month was that?
A. Well, that would have been March or
February, probably February.
Q. Of 1968?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Now you had twenty-five hundred
dollars from November up until February.
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A. Well, I also had some money when I came
back from Canada, but I have got this all wrote
down on papers and things. But I can't
remember, you know, from --
Q. Did you work any job in Los Angeles?
A. No, I never did any -- I never did work
any.
Q. Did you do any robberies while you were
in Los Angeles?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, at that time you -- I guess I
asked you earlier, you had never been to
Memphis, Tennessee, had you, at that point?
A. No.
Q. We are talking about in February 1968.
A. To the best of my recollection, the
only thing that -- I went south, I went in the
south in 1955. I could have come through there
but I don't know which town in the south I went
through. If I had have been there, I would
have just drove through and that would have
been it.
Q. Now, you had this surgery in February
of 1968 in Los Angeles.
A. Yes.
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Q. Do you remember how much you paid for
that?
A. Very little. I think it was $200 or
$250.
Q. How much did you pay for the bartending
course?
A. I don't know how much. That was one
hundred -- I would say I think it was a hundred
and twenty dollars. I don't know what it was.
Q. And you next saw Raul then in March of
1968?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you see him?
A. The Starlight Club in Birmingham.
Q. Okay. When did you leave Los Angeles
to go to Birmingham?
A. Well, sometime in -- I'm just guessing,
probably the 22nd or 23rd of March, sometime
around there. I can't --
Q. Did you veer off and stay in any other
city for any length of time between Los Angeles
and Birmingham?
A. No, I came --
Q. Straight to Birmingham?
A. Yes.
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Q. And he told you he would meet you
there; is that right?
A. Well, I got -- I was supposed to meet
him in New Orleans, but when I got to New
Orleans, I called his number and his
intermediary told me to met him in the
Starlight in Birmingham. And he went on ahead,
he went on ahead to Alabama.
Q. Okay. Now, is that when you -- from
New Orleans you had gone then through Selma,
Alabama?
A. Yes. When I left New Orleans to go to
Birmingham, I think it was two roads that goes
to Birmingham, and I got on the secondary road.
I think that's when -- I went through various
small towns.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, isn't it true that not
only in Selma, but other cities you were
there -- just happen to be there when Doctor
King was there and other cities before that?
A. I don't know what cities that would be.
What cities was I --
Q. Wasn't he in Los Angeles while you were
out there?
A. I was out there first. I mean, he come
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in to town.
Q. Okay. Of course, you were in Atlanta
while he was there, weren't you?
A. Yes, I was in Atlanta, yes.
Q. Okay.
A. I think he was in Chicago when I was
there, but I was already there. So I mean, you
couldn't say that, you know, he was following
me. And I certainly wasn't following him if I
was there first.
Q. Have you ever made the admission to any
person that you were stalking Doctor King?
A. Did I?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No. I have never admitted --
Q. You have never admitted to any person?
A. I have been accused of stalking him,
but I have never --
Q. Were you ever stalking him?
A. No, I wasn't stalking him.
Q. Have you ever told anyone that you were
stalking him?
A. No.
Q. You have never told anyone?
A. No.
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Q. When you were in Jim's Grill, did you
see Mr. Jowers there, Mr. Ray?
A. No, I didn't. When I first went in
there, there was a -- I was in there twice.
There's a possibility I was in there a third,
but I think I was just in there twice. I
thought the first time I was in there there was
a young either black or white woman there. And
the second time I was in there it was either a
black or white. Now I don't remember the
sequence. I don't remember if the first time
was black and the second time was white or the
other way around. But subsequently I was told
that there was no white woman in there, so --
but I was just in there three or four minutes
so I really don't know.
Q. The first time you were in there on
April 4th, 1968, what time roughly were you in
there?
A. Pardon?
Q. What time roughly were you in there?
A. Well, I must have been -- it must have
been somewhere around -- it was after -- it
was -- I was late getting there. I would say
it was after four o'clock.
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Q. Now, Mr. Ray, you had gotten into
Selma, Alabama, and gone into -- gone on into
Atlanta or Birmingham?
A. Birmingham.
Q. Birmingham. All right. And you met
Raul there?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Where did you meet him?
A. The Starlight.
Q. Okay. And what did he tell you then he
wanted you to do?
A. Well, he -- we was going to Atlanta.
He said, you know, we was going to drive to
Atlanta.
Q. He was going to ride with you in your
Mustang?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. How long were you in Birmingham
before you left to go to Atlanta?
A. Very shortly. Very shortly. I just --
Q. Talking about days, six days, five
days, a week, what, before you --
A. Well, when I met him at the
Starlight --
Q. Yes, sir.
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A. Before we went to Atlanta, probably
about five minutes.
Q. You left that same day?
A. Yes.
Q. To go to Atlanta? Had you been in
Atlanta before this?
A. Not unless I went through there in
1955.
Q. When you were talking about earlier?
A. Yes.
Q. You had never been to Atlanta?
A. No.
Q. What did he want to go to Atlanta for?
A. I didn't -- I didn't want to go there.
He --
Q. I said what did he tell you he wanted
you to go to Atlanta for?
A. Well, he didn't tell me at that time.
Q. Did you get -- did he give you any
money then?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. So you drove on into Atlanta, and where
did you stay there?
A. Well, he just directed me around to
kind of a rundown neighborhood. Well, it
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really wasn't rundown, but it wasn't a working
class neighborhood. We drove around briefly
until he seen or I seen a place rooms for rent.
So he told me to go in there and try to rent a
room in the place.
So I went in there and the landlord,
some dude, he was -- him and another guy were
drinking wine and I was trying to rent a room
from them. So I kept trying to, you know, rent
the room and I couldn't make much sense out of
him. So finally, you know, he was going to
rent me a room.
Q. Who was going to rent you a room?
A. The guy. I assume it was the landlord
at the time.
Q. Okay. Was Raul with you?
A. Pardon?
Q. Was Raul --
A. He was out in the car.
Q. Did you tell him you wanted a room for
two people or for one person?
A. No, just me.
Q. Okay. Where was he going to stay?
A. Well, I don't know where he was going
to stay.
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Q. Okay.
A. So he -- the guy told me he would rent
me a room. So Raul came in about that time
and him and this -- these other two guys were
drinking wine so the guy said that, you know,
he would rent me a room and I paid for it. And
he -- let's see, he put me -- he rented me a
room there, but I think it was someone else's
room or something.
Q. Someone else's room?
A. Yes. I told you he was drunk. So he
rented me the room of someone else.
Q. Is this a rooming house you're speaking
of?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you upstairs or downstairs where
he rented you the room?
A. It was downstairs.
Q. Okay.
A. And --
Q. You don't remember what street it was
on?
A. No. It was right off of Peachtree
Street. I can't recall. 14th Street or
something like that.
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Q. Was it close to the Ebenezer Baptist
Church, in that area?
A. No, I don't know whether it was or not.
I think -- subsequently I think it was about a
mile and a half from that, maybe farther than
that, three miles.
Q. How long did Raul tell you you were
going to be in Atlanta, Mr. Ray?
A. Well, he give me an impression we would
be there several days.
Q. And you still didn't know what it was
for, what you were going there for?
A. Well, he didn't give me no details
then. What he told me then was that he was
going to come back, and I might explain
something else. See, when he give me the wrong
room, when the guy, the landlord sobered up, he
put me in, you know, a different room which was
right next door. He had two rooming houses,
his sister did, and he was just the landlord.
So he give me a room right next door. And
after I got to the room, me and Raul went
around to talk to a restaurant around the
corner from Peachtree Street, a diner. And he
told me that he would be back in three or four
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days and that he would go to -- he wanted to
make a trip to Miami. So --
Q. Did he take your car?
A. No. He didn't take the car. No, I
kept the Mustang.
Q. You said he was in the Mustang waiting
for you, how did he leave after you had checked
in the room at the rooming house?
A. Well, he just -- when we went out the
grill, we had some -- we had some lunch. I
don't know how, he just walked off. I didn't
see him.
Q. What grill was that?
A. Well, you go down to -- the street I
was on, you walk about a half, three quarters
of a block maybe and you get on Peachtree
Street and I turned right and we went about a
block down and there's a diner that sits there.
It's kind of a small place, and I think it was
a white villa.
Q. Mr. Ray, now you have known Raul some
several months at this point. Did you ever
know where he was from at this point? Was he
from Mexico, the United States, Canada, where
was he from?
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A. I never made no inquiries. I didn't
ask him for his address.
Q. You never asked him his last name?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Well, you had many, many conversations
with him and had been with him many, many times
at this point.
A. I don't know if I had many. I had
brief conversations with him. It was all
business, but I never had no occasion to ask
him, you know, what his name was and where he
was from and things of that nature. It was
just a business deal rather. It wasn't no
social.
Q. What kind of business deal was it?
A. Well, it was illegal business deals.
Q. I mean, well, other than the fact you
had driven a car across the border a couple of
times, what other illegal business was it
besides those two things?
A. It was nothing. That was it. That
was -- I thought that was enough.
Q. Okay. You had gone to Atlanta. You
went to some place, you don't know where it
was, and you had gotten a room and this
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gentleman put you in the wrong room. But at
any rate you went back to the car and got with
Raul and had gone to a grill. Is that --
A. No, we didn't get in the car. We just
walked.
Q. You walked to the grill?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you stay there?
A. I would say 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. Did you get anything to eat?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you say Raul just
vanished into the night somewhere?
A. Yes. After we talked a while he said
that -- you know, he told me to stay pretty
close to the rooming house because he would be
back in three or four days. I think it was --
and we would take a trip to Miami.
Q. Okay. Well, did you stay three or four
days? Did you stay in the rooming house three
or four days?
A. There was some mention about it, I
don't recall exactly how many days, but anyway
he was going to come back and we were going to
Miami.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. And did he come back and you go to
Miami?
A. No.
Q. When did you return from -- when did
you hear from him next?
A. Well, he came back and it was six or
seven days more than likely.
Q. All right. And you had been there all
that time? Had he given you any more money?
A. Not at that time, no.
Q. How much money did you have?
A. At that time?
Q. We are talking about March of 1968.
A. I've got -- I have got it wrote down
some place. I didn't check it when I came up
here because I --
Q. When did you write it down?
A. But I didn't have a whole lot --
pardon?
Q. When did you write it down?
A. How much money I had?
Q. Oh, you wrote it down back then, and
kept it until now?
A. No, I wrote -- when I testify in court
or something, I go over it because I can't
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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remember it all. I can just remember how much
money I got, but I can't remember the specific
amount I had. I would say I probably had a
thousand dollars. No, I had probably over a
thousand dollars at that time.
Q. All right. You saw him some six or
seven days later. Did he come by or call you
or how did he contact you?
A. No, he came over to the rooming house
and he had problems. He had a problem getting
in. The -- I can't explain exactly how it is,
but the rooms set inside the -- in other words,
you come in the front door. You don't go right
in the room. It used to be doctor's offices
and you had to pound on the door.
Q. To get in?
A. Yes.
Q. And then when you saw him, what did he
want then when he came to the door?
A. When he came back --
Q. I mean, what did he want?
A. When he came back, he mentioned the
fact that he was going to take some, you know,
weapons into Mexico and he wanted me to
purchase a rifle and check up some samples in
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Atlanta, and at this time I told him that I
didn't think I should do it in Atlanta because
all my identifications were from Alabama. So
he agreed to, you know, to do these
transactions in Alabama.
Q. Now, he wanted you to purchase a rifle
and you said do some samples? What kind of
samples, what are you speaking of?
A. Well, he wanted me to look at some
foreign rifles and get an estimate on the
prices of them.
Q. Okay. Well, now, you hadn't had any
experience with rifles. How did you know where
to go look for foreign rifles at this point?
A. When we got to Birmingham?
Q. No, sir, you said in Atlanta. He came
to the rooming house, had trouble getting in
and he got in and told you he wanted you to
look for some rifles and some samples were the
words you used I believe.
A. Yes.
Q. How did you know where to look for
foreign rifles?
A. Well, I didn't know where to look. But
when we got to Birmingham, as I mentioned, I
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didn't want to try to -- I didn't know what the
procedure was for buying rifles. I didn't know
what type of identification you had to show or
whatever and I didn't know anything about the
law.
Q. What type of rifle did he tell you he
wanted you to buy?
A. He didn't. He didn't say.
Q. Are you talking about hunting rifles
like .22's or a higher caliber than that, what
type rifles?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
A. Well, he didn't say -- well, he didn't
say in Atlanta. He didn't get into details. I
just -- you know, when we started talking about
purchasing weapons in Atlanta, I said -- you
know, kind of said, hold on a minute. My
identification is from Alabama, and I think it
probably would be safer if we used -- if I went
to Alabama.
Q. What kind of rifle did you think he
wanted you to buy?
A. Well, he explained that when we got to
Birmingham and checked -- well, he explained
that when we got to Birmingham and checked into
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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the motel.
Q. All right. When he came over this day
to the rooming house where he had trouble
getting in and told you he wanted you to go
look about some rifles and so forth, how long
did he stay then?
A. He didn't stay very long at all.
Q. Are we talking about fifteen minutes,
ten minutes, half a day or what?
A. No, I don't think -- I don't think he
stayed. After he once got in, I don't think he
stayed there over maybe thirty minutes or
something.
Q. Did he give you any money?
A. Not at that time, no.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ray, now you're telling us
he came in and you said he had trouble getting
in and he came in, and the first thing he said
was, I want you to go buy some rifles or look
about some rifles at the --
A. Yes. We started talking about the gun
deals and things like that. I can't quote
everything he said, but the main thing he
wanted, you know, me to check out some rifles.
Q. Is this the first time he had ever
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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mentioned anything about any guns up to this
point? You had known him for months.
A. He had said something about it in
Mexico, I mean, I think in December of 1968 --
December of 1967 when I went to New Orleans
about taking something to Mexico. But I think
he said something about, you know, guns and he
would make quite a bit of money on weapons or
something like that.
Q. What did he say specifically?
A. I can't say what he said specifically.
I know he just made a general reference to what
he wanted to do.
Q. All right. And how long did you -- how
long was it before you left to go to
Birmingham?
A. It wasn't very long. I don't think it
was over a half an hour.
Q. So you went the same day?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it day or night when he came over
there?
A. It was -- it was sometime during the
day, but I can't specify just what time during
the day it was.
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Q. Okay. And you -- he told you he would
go with you in the Mustang to Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you had -- what type of
identification did you have at that time?
A. Well, I had the Eric S. Galt driver's
license in Alabama. I had a bill of sale from
Alabama, a certificate of sale or something.
Alabama doesn't have a title so --
Q. Okay. When you were in Los Angeles
taking the bartender's course, and I may have
asked you earlier, what name did you use then?
A. I'm certain I used the Galt name there.
Q. All right. And then when you -- when
you were in Atlanta and you -- did they ask you
your name there in Atlanta when you were in the
rooming house where the man was drunk, did they
ask you your name?
A. I think they gave me a receipt. Yes, I
think I used the Galt name there.
Q. All right.
A. I'm fairly certain.
Q. When you left Atlanta to go to
Birmingham now, you were driving the Mustang
and Raul was with you.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes.
Q. Right? Okay. Anyone else come up with
you or anyone else appear with you that day
that he came up and told you that he wanted to
purchase some rifles?
A. No, there wasn't. No.
Q. You don't know how he got there?
A. No.
Q. How he got to the rooming house, you
hadn't heard anything from him now for days?
A. Yes, he showed just up, yes.
Q. You don't know where he was staying or
living or anything?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. You left Atlanta to go to
Birmingham and where were you intending to go
in Birmingham?
A. Well, I didn't intend to go anywhere.
He was more or less giving directions, but we
went on to Birmingham.
Q. But I mean, did he sound like he knew
where to go in Birmingham?
A. Yes.
Q. To buy rifles?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Did he give you the name of some place?
A. Well, we went to -- when we got there,
we went to a -- I think this was on a Friday.
We went to a diner and I think he checked -- we
checked out the yellow pages. We may have
checked out a newspaper, too, but he may have
already knew in advance. I'm not going to
speculate what he knew. But anyway, he decided
on this Arrow Marine Supply, and he give me,
you know, general directions. And he told me
he wanted to purchase -- he told me -- he told
me he wanted to purchase --
Q. Okay. Well now, did he go with you?
A. No. I recall he went somewhere with me
but he -- I don't know if he went down there
with me or not. We was driving around, but I
don't -- I don't think he ever went -- he
didn't go -- I know he didn't go all the way
with me to the Arrow Marine Supply where they
sold the rifles. He may have took me on the
road and showed me where it was at or something
of that nature.
Q. You had never been there previously?
A. No, I hadn't.
Q. All right. Did he tell you what type
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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of weapon he wanted you to take a look at?
A. No, he didn't specify. If he did, I
forgot it. But he was talking about -- when I
got there, I asked for a deer rifle I think it
was.
Q. Why did you ask for that?
A. Well, that's usually I think, you know,
rifle. That's the type of rifles he used. But
I don't know too much about rifles so I got it
all --
Q. But he had not specified what caliber
rifle to purchase or what type of anything, any
brand or anything; is that correct?
A. Yes. I don't recollect him mentioning
any specific item. He said something about a
rifle and he asked to check on some foreign
rifles. But if he mentioned the type of
rifles, a specific thing he wanted, I probably
have forgotten about it.
Q. Well, did he want a rifle with a scope
on it or without a scope or --
A. Yes.
Q. One that had a lever down under it that
you used or what kind of rifle did he tell you
to look at?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Well, I don't know. I don't quite
understand why he wasn't more specific about it
but he didn't -- you know, on reflection but he
didn't. He probably give me some directions
but they wasn't good enough to where I could
tell the salesman exactly what I wanted.
Q. Did he write them down?
A. I -- did I?
Q. Did he write them down for you?
A. No, he didn't write them down.
Q. And you just presumed that he wanted a
rifle with a scope on it like a deer rifle?
A. Yes.
Q. You presume that; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he give you any money?
A. Yes. He gave me I think it was about
$750.
Q. Okay. Was that in large bills or small
bills?
A. That was in small bills.
Q. All right. And did he tell you to
spend $750 for a rifle?
A. No, he didn't. I think some of it was
for expenses.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. And then you drove over to this
Arrow Marine Supply?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had never been there before?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it near the -- was it near some
water?
A. I didn't see any water around there.
That was the first time I had been there. I
think there may have been an airport around
there somewhere.
Q. And you don't recall if Raul rode over
there with you or not to this place?
A. I have some recollection of him being
in the car. I think maybe he give me -- he
took me out there and pointed me off where to
go at, but I'm certain he was -- he didn't -- I
know he wasn't with me when I purchased the
rifle.
Q. Okay. When you went into the place
where to purchase the rifle, Mr. Ray, how many
people were in there?
A. It didn't seem to be too many people in
there.
Q. You're talking about three or four?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. It was a salesman, a couple of salesmen
and maybe a couple of other people.
Q. And what did you tell him you wanted?
A. Well, I told him I wanted to -- I was
meeting with my brother-in-law and my brother
was going deer hunting, and I would like to get
a deer rifle and also there was a rack of
apparently German mulzer rifles over there and
I went over there and made some inquiries about
them and asked them how much they cost and he
kind of acted like he wanted to discourage me
from purchasing them so I assumed he wanted me
to buy the more expensive rifle.
Q. Did he show you more than one rifle
while you were there?
A. No. He showed me -- I think it was
just one.
Q. Did you tell him what brand you wanted?
A. No. I made it appear like I was buying
it for someone else, my brother-in-law or
something.
Q. All right. And what name did you give
him?
A. I gave him the name Harvey Lowmeier.
Q. Okay. Where did you come up with that?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. I think Harley Lowmeier is someone -- I
think he's some character in jail with my
brother one time, and I just used his name.
Q. Okay. Did you test fire the rifle
while you were in there?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Okay. Did you tell him you wanted some
ammunition to go with it?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What kind of rifle did he sell
you?
A. I don't know. He just showed me one
and he said this, you know, is a deer rifle and
I said, well, okay. Wrap it up and that was
it.
Q. Okay. How long were you in there,
Mr. Ray, before you purchased the gun?
A. I wasn't in there too long except -- I
think -- I don't know what kind of adjustments
he had to make on the rifle or whether he had
to put the scope on or what. But however long
it took. I didn't hang around there.
Q. Let me ask you something: When he --
when he showed you the rifle, you looked at it,
didn't you?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes.
Q. I mean, you put it in your hands,
didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
A. I may have put it in my hands. I
probably did, yes.
Q. How did -- did he show you how to load
it?
A. I can't remember all the details. He
probably showed me something about it. He
probably figured I had sense enough to load the
rifle.
Q. Tell us about the rifle, what kind --
did it have a lever under it?
A. I don't have no idea what it was. I
just -- he showed it to me and it looked like a
rifle so I said, you know, wrap it up.
Q. When you first saw it, did it have a
scope on it?
A. I don't know if it did or not.
Q. You didn't look through the scope to
see what kind of sighting or bearing it had?
A. No.
Q. And did the scope have some little
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1918
rubber tips on the ends -- on each end to keep
from getting scratched up, do you remember
that?
A. No, I don't remember any of that.
Q. Was it in a box or did he just have it
back behind the counter or was it on the glass
counter or where did he have the rifle?
A. I can't recall. He just brought it out
and showed me. He said, how is this? And I
said, okay, wrap it up.
Q. So you walked in and didn't tell him
what kind of rifle you wanted, what brand, what
caliber, what anything, you just said I want a
deer rifle?
A. Yes. I told him I was going to hunt
deers with my brother-in-law and I would like
to look at some rifles, and he said, this is
what you want. This is probably the best thing
out. He said words to that effect. I said,
okay, that's what I want.
Q. And he never showed you how it had to
be loaded or what you do to load it or
anything?
A. He may have, but I don't recall it if
he did.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Did you specify you wanted one with a
scope on it?
A. Yes.
Q. You did?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. All right. And why did you do that?
What was the reasons for wanting one with a
scope on it?
A. Well, he -- Raul had asked me to get
one with a scope on it.
Q. He had told you that?
A. Yes.
Q. How many guns did Raul tell you to
get?
A. He asked me to get one as a display to
some buyers and he asked me to check on the
prices and the quantity of some foreign made
rifles.
Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Ray, did you ever ask
Raul why he wanted you to purchase these in
Atlanta or Birmingham, why you didn't purchase
them in New Orleans?
A. No, I didn't make no inquiries like
that.
Q. You didn't make any inquiries?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. No.
Q. Okay. You purchased a rifle and paid
him how much?
A. I don't recall that either.
Q. Okay. Did he write you a receipt for
it when you purchased it?
A. Yes. He gave me a receipt for it and
some ammunition, yes.
Q. Did you give him your name and your
address?
A. Yes. But I picked out a phony address.
Q. Where, in Birmingham or Atlanta or
where?
A. In Birmingham. Yes.
Q. All right. And you gave him your name?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have to show him any
identification?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Now, what time of the day are we
speaking of here that you went in to purchase
the rifle?
A. Well, I don't know. It was sometime
probably a little bit after lunchtime or -- it
wasn't -- eleven, twelve, one, somewhere around
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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there.
Q. Now, was Raul sitting in the car
waiting on you while you were doing this?
A. No, he wasn't.
Q. He was not doing that. Okay. How long
were you in the store roughly to purchase the
rifle?
A. I really couldn't say. Just long
enough for him to get it ready. I don't know
if he put the scope on it. I don't know how
long it takes to put a scope on. But it wasn't
very long.
Q. You paid him in cash, of course?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And then you took the
rifle. When you left out of the store, was it
in a box or wrapped up some way?
A. I believe it was in a box, yes.
Q. And it had a scope on it, you knew
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. I had -- it had some ammunition
with it?
A. Yes.
Q. How many bullets did it have, did you
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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purchase?
A. I think it was a couple of clips or
whatever they come in. And I also purchased
some -- this foreign -- some other type of
ammunition, but it's not on the bill of sale.
I don't know. They claim that -- I don't know
what they claim.
Q. What was the reason you purchased the
other type of ammunition?
A. Well, he told me to purchase some
ammunition so I purchased two different types
so he could take his choice.
Q. Okay. Were they the same caliber?
A. Yes.
Q. Same size?
A. Yes. Same size, yes.
Q. Just a different brand?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So you had two boxes of
ammunition?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You left out of the store
and where did you go then?
A. I went back to the motel, the Five
Points Motel that we were staying in.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. Okay. Now, okay. You have lost me
now. You had gone from Atlanta to Birmingham.
I thought you said you went to some place and
looked to see where there was a diner or
something and you looked in a telephone
directory and went straight then to the gun
store?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Where was the motel?
A. The motel was -- it was -- it was
somewhere on the east side of Atlanta -- not
Atlanta but Birmingham. It was a large motel.
The Five Points they call it.
Q. Okay. You left for the store where you
purchased the gun and went back to your car?
A. Yes.
Q. Parked out near I guess in front of the
store?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was Raul?
A. He was at the five -- he was at the
motel.
Q. But now, how did you know where to go
to a motel? You hadn't gotten a motel at that
point.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes, we checked into the motel when we
first got there. I forgot to mention that.
Before we went to the diner grill, we checked
in the Five Points Motel.
Q. Did Raul stay at the motel?
A. Yes, he stayed there, yes.
Q. When did you go to the diner when you
looked into the telephone directory to purchase
a gun?
A. That happened after I had rented the
motel room, yes.
Q. But I thought you said he went with you
to the diner?
A. He did.
Q. Okay. But now you're saying he stayed
at the motel?
A. Well, he stayed at the motel when I
went to purchase the rifle.
Q. Okay. So you went to the diner and
then you took him back to the motel?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. You drove from the place
where you purchased the gun back straight to
the motel.
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. How far was that roughly?
A. It's quite a ways. I don't remember
just --
Q. A mile, five miles?
A. I would say it was about two or three
miles, yes.
Q. Okay. You got back to the motel, was
he waiting for you?
A. Yes.
Q. Anyone with him?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And did you take the gun in?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say about it?
A. Well, he just said it was -- he looked
at it briefly and he said it was the wrong kind
then.
Q. What did he mean by that?
A. Well, I don't know what he meant. He
just said it was the wrong kind of rifle.
Q. The wrong caliber, wrong brand, wrong
what?
A. I think he just said it was -- just the
wrong type.
Q. Okay. That was his words?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Did you ask him what he meant by
that or what he really wanted?
A. No, I didn't. I had a brochure, the
salesmen give me a brochure. So I just handed
him the brochure and told him to pick out what
he wanted and I would go back and --
Q. You mean a brochure of several rifles?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Had you asked him for that?
A. The salesman?
Q. Yes.
A. I think he just give it to me.
Q. Okay. Well, had he given you this
brochure before you bought this rifle?
A. No, I think he give it to me after,
when I got ready to leave. He probably just
handed it to me.
Q. All right. Did -- I gather Raul took
the gun out of the box when you got back to the
motel?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he look down the scope on it?
A. If he did, I didn't notice it. He
seemed just to look at it and checked it out
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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briefly and said it was the wrong type. I
think it was the wrong caliber.
Q. Did he put any guns in the -- did he
put any guns in the clip to see if they fit?
A. No, he didn't do anything with it, no.
Q. He didn't pull the trigger to see if
anything would work on it?
A. No.
Q. He didn't do anything?
A. No.
Q. Okay. What did he want you to do then?
A. Well, he wanted me to exchange it and I
told him, you know, to pick out what he wanted.
So I -- he picked out one and I went down and
made a phone call to Arrow Marine and told them
that I had purchased the wrong type of rifle
and they told me, well, bring it back and they
would exchange it. So --
Q. What did you tell them was wrong with
it?
A. I don't think I said anything right
then. I just told him I think it was the wrong
caliber or something.
Q. And they told you to bring it back?
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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Q. And you had this brochure and Raul had
picked out another type rifle he wanted you to
exchange for it?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did he give you any more
money?
A. No.
Q. Okay. Did you go on back then to
exchange it?
A. Yes.
Q. That same day?
A. I went back to exchange it the same day
and the salesman, he may have told me on the
phone, he said that he couldn't do it that day
but he could get to me -- he could fix it -- he
didn't have time. He could have it ready for
me some time the next day, next morning and --
Q. What time of day did you take it back?
A. It must have been getting kind of late
because he said he couldn't fix it. He
couldn't exchange it that day.
Q. Did Raul ride over there with you when
you were going to exchange it?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. He stayed in the motel?
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1929
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have separate rooms or one room
at the motel?
A. Well, I rented my own room and he just
stayed in there.
Q. In the same room?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. All right. When you took it on
back that day to the store or did you --
A. Yes.
Q. -- wait until the next day, same day?
A. I took it back the same day.
Q. Did you leave it?
A. Yes, I left it.
Q. You left it. Okay. And you told him
what kind of rifle you wanted?
A. Yes. I just told him that, you know,
we was going hunting and I think I mentioned we
were going hunting in Wisconsin or somewhere.
And he said, well -- I know there was some
conversation about bigger deer in Wisconsin
than there are in Alabama.
Q. Was this the same person that you
talked to when you --
A. Yes.
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1930
Q. Is this the same person that you talked
to when you purchased the gun?
A. I believe it was. Yes.
Q. And did you specify when you went back
what brand or what caliber of gun you wanted?
A. I just showed him the brochure, yes.
Q. And you told him that's what you
wanted?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it the same price as the other or
more or less?
A. I believe it was more. It's -- I'm not
certain.
Q. Okay. But -- now, at this point Raul
had not told you why he wanted a different type
of rifle, either brand or caliber or anything.
He just said it wasn't the right type?
A. Yes.
Q. That was his words?
A. Yes, that's --
Q. Okay. Did you -- well, you had
purchased two boxes of ammunition. Did you
take those back, too?
A. Yes.
Q. You took those back, too. Did he want
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1931
you to do that, to take the ammunition back or
was that your idea?
A. Well, I think -- I don't think I -- I
don't have a recollection of taking the
ammunition out of the car. I may have, but
naturally you take the ammunition out for a
different caliber rifle.
Q. Okay. What caliber rifle was this, the
first one that was purchased?
A. I don't know.
Q. What brand was it?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. Okay. All right. When you went back
then, you left the rifle and you took the
ammunition back and left it, too.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that correct?
A. I left all of it, yes.
Q. And then you went back to the motel?
A. Yes. After -- after I made the
arrangements, yes.
Q. You went back to the motel. Was Raul
there at the motel?
A. Yes, he was there.
Q. Okay. What did you do when you got
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999
1932
back?
A. Well, I told him that I had made the
arrangements to exchange the rifle. I may have
told him beforehand based on the telephone call
I got, but I know I told him. One time he
wanted me to come back when I made the phone
call they were going to have the rifle
exchanged and then he told me, you know, he
said okay. So he gave me an address to meet
him in Memphis and he said he was going
somewhere else.
MR. BLEDSOE: Okay. At this
point Mr. Garrison stated, Doctor Pepper, is
this a good place for us to stop? It's almost
five. At which point Mr. Pepper said, sure,
this is fine.
And that was the end of the first day
of the deposition. The end of this volume.
And Mr. Garrison has the second volume.
MR. GARRISON: You want to
continue?
THE COURT: Another volume?
MR. GARRISON: We are going to
read it all.
THE COURT: Well, we had all the
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
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1933
excitement we can stand today. Ten o'clock,
Sheriff.
(Proceedings adjourned at 4:30 p.m.)
DANIEL, DILLINGER, DOMINSKI, RICHBERGER, WEATHERFORD
(901) 529-1999